So my TBM spouse, concerned about my inactivity and expressed doubts, says that out Bishop "will answer all my questions" in our meeting. Problem is I have so many I don't know where to start. He's a nice guy who really does try to help people, yet he was shocked when I told him that going to fairlds.org made my shelf collapse more!

I figure that I will concentrate on the new Church Essays, as he hasn't read them but acts like they are really helpful and "clear everything up." And who can argue with the Church's own materials?

What questions should I pose? I also want my spouse to see that the Bishop isn't Superhuman with insta-revelation on all things.

I would really appreciate a bunch of input from you all out there, as I think my spouse believes I'm now "possessed" or something, the spirit can't get through to me, etc. This may be my last time to try and build some common ground with them before my spouse declares me evil and apostate and dumps me.

Any good questions would be most appreciated. Thanks so much.

MormonThink has analyses of the essays. But I think I would just pick 3 things and stick to that, and be prepared for his response to be bearing his testimony. He has nothing else, and there are too many problems to count

I spoke to my bishop last week. I went in thinking I might argue some points, but when I started I realized it wasn't going to get me anywhere. I just stuck to my guns that I had found out for myself that Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet and that the Book of Mormon was a fraud. And, like many GAs have said, it all falls apart if those things aren't true. I'm not sure if that helps you, but it worked for me.

If I were ever to find a TBM who was willing to listen, I would show them the excellent cesletter.com, and then focus on the Book of Abraham. For me that is the easiest to show the fraud for what it is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2015 02:36AM by freeatlast2015.

When I left, I decided that I would never mention anything that the Mormons would accuse of being "anti-Mormon." I didn't need do! The Mormon church does a great job of shooting itself in the foot. Just like with individual liars and con-artists, let the bishop talk himself into corner after corner.

Just ask a well-thought-out question about one of the many points in the Mormon essays, then sit back and listen, quietly.

Please, I hope you can bring your wife along for the interview, so she can witness the lying and back-pedaling first hand. If you are quiet enough, the bishop (who isn't armed with the Truth) will shoot himself in the foot, and you will be the "good guy." Hopefully, your wife might start re-thinking things. You could even have your wife pray with you, asking God to help her discern good from evil, or asking God to open her mind to God's Truth--whatever it is.

Our bishopric, home teachers, and stake presidency, and some representatives for the rude, nasty, things to me, right in front of my children, who were there for all the visits. My children were there when the bishop threatened us with financial failure, told me my health would get WORSE, and told all of us that God would withdraw His blessings. My answer was, "You can't tell God what to do. God doesn't do bad things to innocent people, just to get money out of them. We actually kicked some of these thugs out of our house.

If your wife doesn't witness bad Mormon behavior first hand, for herself, she will never believe you. Refuse to go, unless your wife goes with you.

Though my children and I were already inactive, these invasive visits made my children even more sure that we were doing the right thing, and that what we were resigning from is an evil cult.

Let your wife pick the issues to discuss. Ask her: What three claims must be true for TSCC to be what it claims to be? Do your homework from mormonthink, the church essays, and the CES letter. Go over it with her before the meeting so she'll know how inadequate the responses are.

Good luck.

I like this idea. What historical events must be true for the church to be true?

First vision? Great! didn't happen! Read how the first vision happened, when it was recorded and how it was never taught in early church history.

King David fell because he committed adultery. Joseph Smith did, too. How could he receive any light and knowledge after behaving so wickedly?

Is it ok to "marry" (sleep with) a married woman? Is your wife ok with that behavior? How many times did JS do that?

Everyone has their own way of looking at the church. What got me out might not mean much to you. For what it's worth here's my take on the church:

Mormonism comes down to one fundamental question - who was Joseph Smith? If he was the one true prophet who restored the one true church then you better hang in there. But if he was a fraud who took advantage of people's gullibility to gain money, sex, and power then Mormonism is as phoney as it's founder. The way to tell whether it's Prophet or Fraud is to look at what he said and did.

So you look at what he produced and it's self serving and provably false. Polygamy served no purpose but to allow Joseph and his close henchmen access to lots of nubile young girls. The demands for blind obedience is self serving rather than divine. The Book of Abraham is based on a mis-translation of the book of the dead. The Book of Mormon is filled this things that did not exist in pre-Columbian America and so forth on and on. You can't make the case that Joseph was the true mouthpiece of God but the case for fraud is overwhelming.

Exactly this!!! There were a lot of things that were on my shelf. As a TBM, I could justify most of them. But eventually, the evidence was too overwhelming that Joseph was a fraud and that all of his "revelations" were very self serving.

Dear Panted M.,

All Best to you. In truth finding good questions to ask is a bit like studying up on Marxist Theory before getting hauled in front of a Stalin show trial. At least in this case "to the Gulag" will be replaced with "read the Gospels and pray."

I think that as soon as the Bishop realizes that you've got solid issues, he'll just resort to pay, pray and obey. And read only the 'correct' books.

It will be all about testimony and feelings and what you have to do to get those things back, which is again all about paying, praying and obeying.

you don't need to argue anything, it is a ridiculous tale beginning to end, all you have to say is that you simply don't believe it.

I would start off by turning the tables:

"Bish, do you masturbate?"

Hahaha!

If I were you, I'd probably just start by asking him to read a specific essay prior to the meeting. Bring a copy of the essay and notes with you to the meeting so you can ask specific questions. I agree to bring your wife. Choose an essay that resonates with you the most as to why the church can't be true.

For me, that would probably be the Priesthood Ban essay because it can bring the reader to the conclusion that leaders are fallible. If the leaders are fallible how can we follow them or trust them? Also fallible leaders goes completely against what was said in the most recent conference. "We cannot lead you astray."

Good luck

The fundamental issues devolve eventually into appeals to authority.

Like:
Joseph Smith married 14-year-old girl? God told him to do it.

It may be useful to determine first what you want to get out of the meeting. Here's a by-no-means-exclusive list of possibilities:

-- Deconvert the bishop
-- Deconvert the wife
-- Aid your wife in understanding your issues with the church and/or explaining the moral imperative you have to depart it

Don't know if you have kids, but you could have a go at telling the bishop that you couldn't morally vindicate JS's behavior when there's no way you'd permit your children to do the same thing.

I actually did this very thing, though it was I and not my wife who decided I could turn to the bishop.

Going to fair (or anyone apologetic, or reading books your bishop prescribes) *is* as you said, the thing that weighs heaviest upon the shelf.

The most effective thing was, for me, to go in all sincerity. If your wife thinks it'll help, hell, maybe it will.

More likely, the bishop will fish for a sin he can counsel you on, prescribe some reading, and I wouldn't be surprised if he, like mine, asked you to search your feelings, before "thinking with your head.

Mine prescribed reading The Miracle of Forgiveness, which I did, cover to cover. I took what I learned therein to my wife, in all sincerity, and it permanently bent her shelf.

(We played a game at one point where I bet her I could flip to a random page and she'd be offended in one paragraph. I won 6 of 7 rounds).

So I say, for your wife's sake, go. Do it honestly and openly, with your own three (or so) biggest "questions". The truth will out.

Still, as one who has been through it before, i'm sorry you're in this situation. All the best.

Maybe you don't want to get into the issues at all. Perhaps, these are the only questions you want the bishop to answer:

Will you encourage my wife to think of me as a "less than" husband, perhaps even to divorce me, because I no longer believe the church is what it claims?

Or will you encourage my wife to continue to love and respect me as her devoted, loyal husband despite our religious differences?

Will you encourage my children to think of me as a "less than" father, undermining our relationships?

Or will you support my role as father and husband despite the fact that I don't hold the "priesthood"? Will you respect my position as father and husband, insisting that I be included in religious decisions that affect my family?

Will you refrain from discussing me and my family in meetings, respecting our privacy and right to make decisions that are best for us?

Or will you encourage gossip and fuel speculation about us by discussing us in meetings? Will you encourage the ward members (and my own family) to view me as a "lost sheep" in need of saving? Will you encourage ward members to go behind my back, subverting my position and relationships with my wife and children?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2015 09:48AM by caedmon.

Personally, I would never go in this direction! It gives way too much power to the cult. It starts with the premise that I'm leaving the one true church on earth; now, will you please let me go in peace, and also grant me the same status and respect you would if I remained faithful to the Truth? The answer is: no, because you're an apostate; or yes, because I've decided to be generous. This treats the bishop as a judge, and you as a penitent.

No, you've got all the cards. Show them. You're holding the entire deck! You don't need to bluff. Anything you pick: JS is fraud, JS is a sexual reprobate, BoM is false, DNA, a rock in a hat?!

Like, just rock-in-a-hat. I'm supposed to believe that?! If I sat here right now, telling you that God is showing me words on this rock I picked up out of a hole a dug in my yard, and I've got it in my hat, and now, I put my head in this hat, and viola, I'm reading now. Seriously, this is believeable?! But I was told, and so were you, a story about golden plates. Why? To defraud me, I'd never believe the truth, and you wouldn't either.

Pick a flush, a straight, full house, the choice is yours. It's a truth claim you want to go after, because the evidence of falsity is overwhelming. You're on solid ground when you deal with facts here.

Bring written questions and lots of notes.

Also wishing you all the best. My most recent quest has been to insist of myself, wife, and others, that we begin to confront the hard questions.

In dealing with your bishop, the tendency will be to perpetuate the Mormon kabuki theatre approach of dancing around sensitive issues. You and he will not be able to come to any lasting understanding unless you ask the hard and uncomfortable questions. The LDS essays will help you do that, because it gives you something you can insist upon. While you cannot insist that he read something like "In Sacred Lonliness," you can insist that he read the church's essay on Smith's polyandry and polygamy, and ask direct questions: Why was it appropriate that he marry the wives of men whom he had sent on a mission? Then don't settle for the usual "it'll-all-be-worked-out" answer.

Then arm yourself with knowledge Jeremy Runnell's CES letter. No LDS church member who is in a leadership or teaching position, including the missionaries, should be unable to answer Runnells' questions. It should be fundamental ground, must-know stuff.

I would be very wary of trying to engage the bishop in a "discussion" unless you have done your own homework. That you are asking for the best questions suggests to me you are not ready to engage the bishop in front of your wife.

You need to remain calm and in control. If the bishop can give responses to your questions that you cannot calmly rebutt, then he has the upper hand and your wife will side with him.

If it were me, I would go in with 3 big issues, the ones that bother you the most. Perhaps BoA, polygamy, DNA evidence, whatever it is that was the deal breaker for you. Then let him talk, don't try to debate back unless you are sure of your position. Do not get frustrated at all.

Then what you have achieved is a calm announcement of your concerns in front of your wife, and you then have the opportunity to encourage her to help you to investigate the issues you have raised. You have the opportunity to discuss later with her what you forgot to mention to the bishop, or what didn't make sense at the time.

I have noticed that expressing the problem clearly and remaining calm, proclaiming your love for your wife, and just letting the other person show how little they actually know is better than debating.

Discussions of doctrine and history are endless. To me that doesn't matter. I talk to TBMs from the perspective that the church is true.

Even if true, I don't care for church life and doing that for eternity in the Celestial Kingdom. My wife doesn't want to do polygamy. Maybe ask the bishop what he will love about the CK? Does he love home teaching and temple work more than going to ball games, or fishing, or spending time with family? Not me. Which is why I always fought guys to do their home teaching when EQ president. Few members like the core work of the church, yet they want to do it for eternity, yeah right.

Free agency is key. They need to respect your free agency and you respect theirs. Satan didn't want us to be free.

He can't argue with your tastes. Liking apple pie more than cherry isn't wrong.

I also throw in that I will wait to make eternal decisions til after I die, as there is way too much confusion here on earth. Things keep changing. The prophet doesn't spend time clearing things up.

If I was to become god, I would make things clear so people can make informed decisions as to their eternity.

I told my SP several months ago that the toothpaste was out of the tube and that I was done believing in the lies. He is a close friend and we have had several good discussions over the past few months. He always makes it a formal meeting at his office, but since he's a good friend I don't take it as a threat. Inevitably, our discussions hit a point where he says he simply doesn't have answers, but "smarter men" then he believe it, so he doesn't question it. He says he's felt it and can't deny those feelings. Last time we met was before the essay came out about Joseph's polygamy. He denied any of the claims against Joseph as lies from the "anti's". I'm meeting with him again tonight and I'm curious what he has to say about the "lies" now. I also told him I would come back to full activity and even catch up on my tithing if he could answer one question (actually it was two). I asked him what the first thing he would do if he learned about the sealing power and then recieved it. He said he would run home and seal himself to his wife and kids. I then asked him why Joseph waited several years and after sealing himself to dozens of women to seal himself to Emma and presumably his kids. Crickets. Anywho. Looking forward to another circular discussion with my good friend tonight. Wish me luck.

haha! good luck! I loved the questions you asked.

Those two questions are brilliant in their simplicity. Really nice way to make it personal to your wife, but non-threatening.

in that meeting is your wife. You already know the church isn't true, and you'll never convince the bishop. She's the one you need to win over to your side.

I think I would print out the essays from the church's website, or access them online while you are there so she can see they ARE at LDS.org. But I wouldn't discuss them in depth. You've reached your own conclusions on them, and you might share the most important points that might catch your wife's attention.

What I would focus on:

I would debunk the notion that 'the spirit' is a reliable way to determine truth. The reason why I would focus on that is that EVERY discussion of the many problems in Mormonism ALWAYS falls back to testimony and feelings. Show that that fundamentalists of every stripe have 'testimonies' and can witness with tears in their eyes that their church is true. Ultimately, you either have to say that their beliefs are ALSO true, or that their feelings have misled them. And that feelings can be manipulated. You might even show them an emotionally moving video of someone bearing witness of a different church. If THEY could get their testimony feelings triggered before they realize someone is bearing witness of a different church, it would be priceless.

Showing that you are calm and reasonable, and setting boundaries could also be a good goal for your meeting. For example: not allowing them to call your character into question or go fishing with a 'worthiness interview'. It's not about you. The church is either true or it's not and it has NOTHING to do with your character or how sincerely you have tried to believe it. (Although you've apparently tried pretty hard if you went to FAIR.org.)

I'd also maybe talk about the fear that Mormons have of investigating questions or 'losing their testimonies'. If they have the truth, what do they have to be afraid of? Their reluctance and fear betrays that at some level they suspect their beliefs to be fragile and indefensible.

Good Luck tjc! Infiltrate and report!

One you might want to read up on is the FACT that the church defacto states in the blacks jn the priesthood esay that B Young is a false prophet... As well as the next 10 or so prophets... See Mormon think... A week or so ago we had a thread on this with very good points.
BOA is exellant if you know what you are talking about
Brushing up on the fact js took the words and ideas for the BOM from KJVB with italicized words, view of the Hebrews, first book of Napoleon, the Great War, and the golden pot. All of which were available to js. couple that with the Kinderhook plates and BOA.

I'd focus more on personal experience than problems with church doctrine and history.

In my own experience, I prayed over many years seeking a confirmation of the truthfulness of the BoM...I got nothing.

I attended the temple quite a bit trying to gain some deeper understanding, but there was nothing there.

After learning more about church history, I had to consider that maybe there was a reason I didn't gain that burning testimony. I switched gears and started praying to know if it was all false and I gained peace and understanding that I'd been missing all these years.

Maybe ask the bishop to consider this: If JS was a true prophet, there's a lot of odd things that went on, and all we can say is maybe we'll understand god's intentions in the next life.

On the other hand, what type of man was JS if he wasn't a true prophet?...A man whose whole life was a lie. A man that commanded others, in the name of God, to give him money, to build him a house, etc... A man who frequently had trouble with the law for legitimate reasons. A man that slept with dozens of women behind his legal wife's back...in the name of God. A man that lied about decent women that refused his advances, etc...

If Joe was a prophet, God sure seems like an oddball. If not, he was just a dirty, rotten, lying, false prophet, serial adulterer, scoundrel. If there is a god, how could he fault me for not believing in that?

Want do you want him to know?
As adults you came to different conclusions, that's OK, you can do that. We are free to change our mind.
All you need or want is for members to live their own religion: The 11th Article of Faith works! We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Actually, it's a private decision for your family and there is no need to discuss it with anyone. The bishop does not have any answers about the religion that will satisfy you.

I would recommend one thing above all--maintain the moral high ground! You are interested in the truth, whatever that may be. You are brave enough face facts and amend your behavior if you must to be in good conscience with yourself. They are not more righteous than you for sticking with the church.

Emphasize that you believed in the church until you became aware of specific and overwhelming evidence that proves to you it cannot be true. Having faith in something that you cannot see but is true may be good, but an honest person cannot maintain faith in something he is able to see is untrue.

If you want to bring in the essays, I would bring up the Nauvoo polygamy essay. Find the part where it admits the marriage to 14 yr. old Helen Mar Kimball and claims she described the marriage as "for eternity alone." Go to the footnote for this quote which will lead you to a poem Kimball wrote later in life. She does write these words, but when you read it in context in the poem, it becomes clear that she is saying she thought that is what the marriage would be but turned out to be mistaken. The essay uses this quote to completely misrepresent what she was really saying. If you want to continue with this case, read to your wife and bishop what Kimball wrote about her mother's feelings on this marriage. Her mother was beside herself and very reluctant. Why would this be if the marriage was merely for eternity? The bottom line is this essay lies. Why would the church try to misrepresent this, even in admitting the marriage? The obvious answer is that this marriage and the many others were wrong and the truth of them cannot be defended.

With just this one essay you can go further to demonstrate that Joseph Smith lied about polygamy his entire life. Show them them his last public speech, the King Follet sermon, where he denies once again just a few weeks before his death in Carthage. He was in Carthage for destroying the printing press that told the truth about polygamy. The truth that the church now admits. Have them read the Nauvoo Expositor's one and only issue so they can judge for themselves. Look up the lessons in church manuals that say the Expositor was telling lies about JS. Why did they lie in these manuals when now they admit that the charge of polygamy was absolutely true?

The other issues I might bring up are the first vision problems and the BofA. The history is the history in these two cases and they demonstrate clearly that JS would make up scripture and lie about where he got it. Which puts the BofM in doubt, and then one learns of the many anachronisms in the book. How could this possibly be about real people in the Americas? Any reasonable person would conclude that it cannot. The history of the first vision lead any reasonable person to conclude it did not happen and absolutely could not have happened as canonized in the PofGP.

Good luck to you! Remember that you are not inferior here. You are merely doing what is right considering what you now know.

Hard to understand why Mormons on the verge of leaving so often feel the need to talk to "my bishop".

Your bishop is a nobody who has neither authority nor inspiration to meddle in your life.

Just walk away and be done with all this fake crap.
No special explanations are needed.

Colette

Responding to your statements:
Why do they talk to the Bishop? For the same reason, probably that Catholics talk to their Priest. Bishops are the "Father of the Ward" seen as their spiritual leader, the person to go to when having a spiritual crisis or other difficulties that he may help them with.
Some can just walk away, but this is not common as most others must take a lot of things into consideration concerning their family, career, etc.
Changing their religious beliefs is a major change and one that involves their culture, often their generational family, and all of their traditions.

Personally, without looking at the other comments, I think that you should just make a simple list of the topics and the information that really troubled you. Lay it out on the table, and see what he says. Put the burden of proof and argument on someone else; this isn't your problem, it's the Church's.

...I can see why people would want to talk to their bishop--to give others the benefit of the doubt, to get a stronger sense of closure, or getting the sense of potentially holding someone accountable when challenged with historic evidence to the contrary of their teachings.

There is no harm in any of these things or desires, just make sure you go prepared so that you're not manipulated or punked around.

Be prepared for questions like these from the bishop:

How often do you pray?

Do you and your wife kneel together in prayer daily?

How often do you read the scriptures?

Are you visiting 'antimormon' websites or reading anti literature?

When was the last time you went to the temple?

Have you taken your questions to the lord?

On a scale of 1 to 10, how close do you feel to the lord right now?

The bishop may also say things like:

The adversary works very hard to get us to doubt and question our faith.
The adversary works very hard to make us feel inadequate.

And on and on and on...

He will try to convince you that your crisis of faith is somehow your fault.
He will tell you to work harder (magnify your calling, serve others etc.)
He may even tell you that your family's eternal salvation/exaltation is on the line.

Everything he says will be an attempt to give you a guilty conscience...to humble you.

He will also tell you that he 'loves you'.

I don't know if your bishop will say or ask any of those things, but he might.

brettm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Be prepared for questions like these from the
> bishop:
>
> How often do you pray?
>
> Do you and your wife kneel together in prayer
> daily?
>
> How often do you read the scriptures?
>
> Are you visiting 'antimormon' websites or reading
> anti literature?
>
> When was the last time you went to the temple?
>
> Have you taken your questions to the lord?
>
> On a scale of 1 to 10, how close do you feel to
> the lord right now?
>
> The bishop may also say things like:
>
> The adversary works very hard to get us to doubt
> and question our faith.
> The adversary works very hard to make us feel
> inadequate.
>
> And on and on and on...
>
> He will try to convince you that your crisis of
> faith is somehow your fault.
> He will tell you to work harder (magnify your
> calling, serve others etc.)
> He may even tell you that your family's eternal
> salvation/exaltation is on the line.
>
> Everything he says will be an attempt to give you
> a guilty conscience...to humble you.
>
> He will also tell you that he 'loves you'.
>
> I don't know if your bishop will say or ask any of
> those things, but he might.



Do you really think so though that they can continue asking those kinds of questions re. 'anti-mormon literature' and 'doubt' in light of releasing all those essays?

It doesn't matter who you are in the Church--anyone who reads those essays is going to have to re-configure their faith and their belief around them. I think Bishops, and other leadership have to be able to stand up to those legitimate concerns and guide people through that process--and I believe that they won't be able to. They can't write it off as the 'adversary' anymore.

Nowadays, my answer to such an inquiry would simply be, "As an adult, I can choose to attend your church, or not. I expect my decision to be respected in the same way that I respect your decision to attend, just as the 11th Article of Faith states."

I never really felt like an adult until I'd left the Church.

"Nice" bishops who want to "help" are guys with the job of changing the minds of the wayward. If you're not willing to change, there's no need to subject yourself to this indignity.