http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/2122123-155/no-apology-really-mormons-question-apostle

I am glad to see that at least some of the faithful are ticked at Dallin's comments.

I check my Mormon neighbors & coworkers, daily, and find most of them confused.

I checked New Order Mormon. Some people there are angry, embarrassed, discouraged about remaining in the church...

The church was totally willing to accept the apology of the state of Missouri for the actions of Gov. Boggs and the state militia. They made a big public deal out of it.

It amuses me how getting in trouble shapes church doctrine as time goes on. In the 70's the church got in trouble for treating black people as lesser beings. The policy on the priesthood changed. In the 00's the church got in trouble for meddling in a state election regarding gay marriage. Now the church changed it's stance on that. Brigham Young is rolling in his grave.

The church today is completely different to how Brigham Young wanted it to be. Polygamy, Blood Atonement, Adam-God, the list goes on.

15 suits making it all up as they go.

double speak at it's finest

+ 100

Yea...this comment from Oaks is a doosy...

"The church doesn't "seek apologies," he said, "and we don't give them.""

The leaders know that they were:
- wrong.
- past beliefs are against their members morals.
- past beliefs went direct against their god's wishes

...but...no apologies


And this comment:

""We sometimes look back on issues and say, 'Maybe that was counterproductive for what we wish to achieve,' but we look forward and not backward.""

Translation- we revise when we deem it necessary. All with no apologies of course

""We sometimes look back on issues and say, 'Maybe that was counterproductive for what we wish to achieve,' but we look forward and not backward.""

I don't think they understand how that kind of language plays to the public. It sounds very sinister. If he said, "we look back and realize that we'd strayed from god's plan" or "we realize we were wrong and ask forgiveness..." or something. But when a guy says "it was counterproductive for what we wish to achieve" it sounds creepy. What do you wish to achieve, world domination? It's like that famous quote about some true things are not useful. Not useful? I could see some truths being misleading if considered out of context. Or some true things being irrelevant. But not useful? Useful for what? World domination? Fleecing the flock? I know they probably mean, the work of salvation. But the public doesn't know about these cultural idioms about "the work"and so it just sounds evil. It doesn't help that he looks like Dr. Evil or Mr. Clean.

We are always right, even when we are wrong.

How arrogant.

No apologies, just apologists.

Well, assholes like Oaks are assholes because they really are assholes!

I like how he is not referred to as Elder Oaks I also like how Peggy doesn't call this diatribe "the church's stance". Subtle but powerful. And again, where is Captain Planet, even the Prophet Seer and Revelator through all of this? Why not the words "thus saith the Lord?"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2015 11:09AM by antilehinephi.

The last time that term was used in the mormon CULT was some one hundred seventy two years ago when Joseph was attempting to get Emma to accept his "celestial" sex partners.

The most Brigham could get out was "The Word and Will of the Lord". None of the mormon PROFITS since have even gone that far.

The last "revelations" are really just "Official Declarations" and are actually justifications of why the church must abandon polygamy and accept Blacks into the priesthood than any direction from god. The first fully misrepresents (lies about) the then current polygamous practices within the church and the last one is full of double-talk and puts the blame on god for withholding the priesthood ("he has heard our prayers").



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2015 11:29AM by Templar.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2015 11:42AM by Templar.

Oaks is arrogant and puffed up in his heart. He's also the one that said "it's wrong to criticize the leaders of the church, even if that criticism is true". Where do they get these people to lead the church???? What happened to humble men trying to do good?

What more proof would anyone need to know without question that Mormonism is false than its sorry excuse for leaders - a bunch of senile old farts who are completely out-of-touch with todays modern internet world. Men of god? Give me a break!

You're actually wrong about that Templar. I heard them say in conference that they *are* in touch, so yeah...

No. no. The last time they were "in touch" was 1990 when they still had the "five points of fellowship" at the veil of the temple.

'Funny' how MoLeaders can be so nuanced about the peripheral matters... but are Completely Silent about the Application of core essentials of Christ-Like living such as Kindness, Honesty, etc.

Mormon leaders have Lost their souls,

they Strain at a gnat, but swallow a camel.

they've become little more than spin-meisters

Here are two excerpts from the comments section on the Trib website:

[...]Religions are allowed to discriminate in their membership and against their membership. They are not allowed to discriminate and politically organize against other citizens of this country. For all the mormon church has done over the past 20plus years to fight against citizens' civl rights they should most definitely lose their tax exempt status. [...]



[...] Last year the Federal Goverment gave LGBT employees benifits then shortly after the Federal Goverment protected Federal Workers from discrimminating agianst LGBT workers and said that all "Federal Contractor's" must abide by the same policies or loose their federal contract(s) and grants, the LDS Church , BYU and LDS buisnesses have Federal Contracts and grants and could loose them. The LDS Church is not swaying for LGBT protection because of a change of heart, they are doing this for GREED and to save their contracts and grants. They are using the "Religious Liberities and Protections" to side step the federal goverments rules and pretending not to discrimminated agianst the LGBT community. [...]

http://www.npr.org/2015/01/29/382463494/mormon-lgbt-announcement-met-with-cheers-skepticism

Excerpt pasted in below:
SIEGEL: This would then be more of a change in tone.

OAKS: It is a change in tone, but it's also an appeal to both sides of a very divisive debate. That they speak to one another with respect and avoid public intimidations and boycotts and some of the tactics that have been used so far.

SIEGEL: The church was very much identified with the campaign in California for the proposition that would ban same-sex marriage. Should we infer from the statements made this week that now we're talking about a very different approach to the entire issue?

OAKS: I don't think it's a different approach. We were really the victims of intimidation and retaliation and boycotts in California. Many of them lost jobs or publicly intimidated and boycotted against the businesses, and we're pleading that that not be repeated.

What a spin meister this evil old coot is! "We were discriminated against?" Give me an f-ing break.

"divisive debate" the only reason it is even a debate at all is because TSCC is using mass slander to damage the reputation of gays to the extent that they can deny rights to gays.

Here's a comment from an obvious TBM (from the Tribune website):

800+ comments, mostly negative, is exactly why the LDS Chruch should never suffer these fools and give them an inch. They (LDS Church) did a good thing here, trying for a middle ground and yet it is very clear it will never be enough.

Take it back LDS Church, take back your good will, take it all back. Apparently the gay community wants it all, even our religious liberty.

No more negotiating. They want an endless rhetorical war...Give it to them..

They all need to learn the power of the apology. Time to change their police of not giving them. If you want to get out of a hole, you must stop digging.

The problem which Oaks and his ilk have not foreseen is the ammunition they just provided to doubting members with TBM families. The worse the things they say, the more reasonable us apostates sound.

You won't see numerous TBM comments like the one above on newspaper websites outside the morridor. A few TBM's are commenting, but for the most part, non-jello-belt people have a much broader perspective. They're looking at church history, and that includes recent anti-gay actions.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-mormon-talks-20150131-story.html#page=1

Excerpt pasted in below:

[...] And even when church officials agreed to support antidiscrimination ordinances, the church insisted on exemptions for religious freedom, such as laws to protect Mormon doctors who refuse to perform abortions or to assist with artificial insemination for lesbians.[...]

Meanwhile, on the Salt Lake Tribune site, we see stuff like this:

It's to bad the Tribune has become a hate site.

The church doesn't teach hatred towards gays. Not once have I heard a sermon about hating gays. There may be disagreement about redefining marriage, there may be individuals who mistreat gays, but the church teaches love for everyone.

Proof that Dallin Oaks's "no apology" stance is causing people to leave TSCC (this comment is from the Salt Lake Tribune website):

To suggest that the word 'apology' is not found in the scriptures has got to be the dumbest thing this otherwise bright man has ever said. I guess Mormons should repent from apologizing to spouses or co-workers. The leaders we idolize never have to apologize, and technically, the word is not in the scriptures anyway, so why should I personally have to ever apologize for anything? How asinine. And precisely the too-cute-by-half language the Pharisees would have used.

The church claims to be the sole authorized mouthpiece of God on earth, yet actively taught one of the most pernicious ideas around--that a person's worth before God is determined by skin color--until long after all but the most unrepentant bigots let it go. And then to blithely dismiss all of the pain and suffering that doctrine caused by simply shrugging and saying, "gee, we don't know how that happened," smacks of the very worst kind of pride and arrogance.

How hard is it to acknowledge that the same type of flawed thinking behind the racial bigotry is at play in the leadership's attitude toward LGBTs and women? If the bias of a self-serving worldview obscured the leadership's understanding of racial issues for 150 years, just maybe they still have a ways to go. And why the defensive stance? The whole concept of modern-day revelation presumes we don't yet have all the answers and still need to make PROGRESS.

But what's the point of modern day revelation anyway, if you never use it? God might as well have just left us with the Old Testamant, which is the era in which church leaders seem to be mired in. The cloak of infallibility the leaders hide behind is sickening. I've been an active member all my life, but I'm done with this.

Sigh... Their prophet doesn't prophecy, and their apologists don't apologize.