Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
How do Mormonism's Club of Male Munsters regard "their" Mormon women? Let's review a few examples from the uncorrelated history books.
--Shutting Up Pesky Female Mormon Historians
Recall how the Brethren's go-to bully-boy, Dallin Oaks, moved to ban female Mormon historians Linda King Newell and Vallen Tippetts Avery from giving talks in Church or firesides about their LDS-unapproved book, "Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith."
Below is a brief historical review on how anti-fem-for-men Oaks went after these two award-winning women Mormon authors with a vengeance for telling the truth about Joseph Smith's sordid reputation. It's a revealing case of how the LDS male elite has muzzled Mormon females who dare speak, in print, truth to LDS male-abused priesthood "power.
"'Mormon Enigmas: Linda Newell and Valeen Avery'
"John Larson of 'Mormon Expression' did a book review of Mormon Enigma' by Linda Newell and Valeen Avery. I’m not going to quote the whole podcast, but John gives a very interesting introduction to the book. In light of my recent post, 'Latter-day Dissent,' I thought I would continue the theme of how the church deals with intellectuals."
"'This book was published in the fall of 1984. There sort of a back story to it. Both of the women who wrote the book were faithful, active members. One has passed away; the other is still alive today. They both still remain active members of the Church. There was sort of a controversy around the book. A priesthood circular went all, I think all through Utah telling all priesthood leaders that they were not allowed to have either woman speak about the book in any setting.
"'At the time, during the 1980s, there was the "Know Your Religion" series, and it was really common to have firesides about people who knew something about something or the other. They got stopped immediately. The two women actually requested and were granted a meeting with the top brass; they met with [Dallin H.] Oaks and [Neal A.] Maxwell [both were apostles]. This would be around the early summer of 1985.
"'The meeting went back and forth. What was really confusing to the authors is that they remained members in good standing, although there were rumors going around that they would be excommunicated or whatever, but they were never told anything. That went out into that sort of secret circular letter and they only knew about it because they had friends who were stake presidents who shared it with them. When they met with the Brethren, they said, "what’s going on?"
"'Oaks said something very informative. I pulled this out of "Dialogue" magazine: "If 'Mormon Enigma' reveals any information that is detrimental to the reputation of Joseph Smith, then it is necessary to try to . . . stop its influence and that of its authors." They basically said, it doesn’t matter if what you are saying is true or not; if you’re going to say something that’s outside the normal line, we don’t want you talking about it.
"'Of course, the authors were blacklisted. You can read about the blacklisting in Arrington’s book, "Adventures of a Church Historian." He talks about it quite extensively. The Church maintains a blacklist of all the books and authors that are not allowed to be quoted. This effectively ruined the two women’s careers for speaking or engaging with the active Latter-day Saints, although you can still buy this book through Deseret Book. It remains sort of an enigma itself, so I guess that’s fitting for the book.'
"That’s the background of the book. . . .
". . . [T]he book won several awards. In 1984, it won an award from the Mormon History Association for best book. It also won an award from BYU, which sort of put the Church in a bind because they had recognized it as a great book and then they were stopping it at the same time.
"This sort of action really bothers me. As I mentioned in my previous post, I would like to start writing Mormon history articles and/or books. I’m looking to write good, honest history. This blacklisting just seems a bit sneaky and dishonest to me. I don’t think the rumors about these two women’s reputation is fair or Christlike. It’s as if the Church is saying in a Jack Nicholson voice, 'You can’t handle the truth.'
"Why can’t we be honest with our history? Is it really a good idea to suppress unflattering information? None of us are perfect. Joseph and Emma weren’t either. Is it really good to believe in whitewashed myths about them? Can’t truth be inspiring as well?"
("Mormon Enigmas: Linda Newell and Valeen Avery," on "Mormon Heretic: Stuff they don’t talk about in Sunday School," by "Mormon Heretic," 15 May 2011, at: http://www.mormonheretic.org/2011/05/15/mormon-enigmas-linda-newell-and-valeen-avery/)
Here's more on Oaks' vow to silence these uppity LDS female historians:
"When asked about an unflattering (though historically accurate) book about the life of Emma Smith called 'Mormon Enigma: The Life of Emma Hale Smith,' which sheds a very unfavorable light on Joseph's practice of polygamy, Elder Oaks said this: 'My duty as a member of the Council of the Twelve is to protect what is most unique about the LDS Church, namely the authority of priesthood, testimony regarding the restoration of the gospel, and the divine mission of the Saviour. Everything may be sacrificed in order to maintain the integrity of those essential facts. Thus, if "Mormon Enigma" reveals information that is detrimental to the reputation of Joseph Smith, then it is necessary to try to limit its influence and that of its authors.'"
(Apostle Dallin Oaks, quoted in "Inside the Mind of Joseph Smith: Psychobiography and the Book of Mormon, Introduction,footnote 28, p. xliii," as referenced under "Milk Before the Meat," on "New Order Mormon" website, at: http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?p=116703)
Here's an updated account of the initial ban and Oaks' effort to enforce it:
"'Mormon Enigma,' by Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery:
"Avery and Newell's 1984 bio of Emma Smith was referenced quite favorably in the 'Ensign' pre-publication and they were both invited by church groups, particularly Relief Society groups, to give firesides and presentations on their work in church. Then some time after the book was actually published, all of the invitations stopped rather suddenly. Upon investigating, the authors learned that a letter was sent from Church headquarters instructing wards and stakes not to allow the authors to address any Church group. I believe the two authors were also not to be allowed to speak in their own wards' sacrament meetings.
"They were finally granted an audience with Dallin Oaks, who, according to them, gave as the reason for the ban this gem of a quote:
"'My duty as a member of the Council of the Twelve is to protect what is most unique about the LDS church, namely the authority of priesthood, testimony regarding the restoration of the gospel, and the divine mission of the Savior. Everything may be sacrificed in order to maintain the integrity of those essential facts. Thus, if "Mormon Enigma" reveals information that is detrimental to the reputation of Joseph Smith, then it is necessary to try to limit its influence and that of its authors.' (Linda King Newell, 1992 Sunstone Pacific Northwest Symposium, "The Biography of Emma Hale Smith').
"The ban was lifted a few years later after quiet and persistent efforts by concerned parties behind the scene.
"'MormonThink' review: 'Mormon Enigma' is one of the books that was allowed to be read for class assignment at BYU when I attended there. It’s not dedicated to polygamy but deals with it quite a bit--mostly from Emma’s perspective. It's available at Deseret Book. Although it if a faithful book, it accurately describes some of the disturbing details of polygamy and mentions the Book of Mormon translation details that most members are unaware of. It's a fairly tame book and probably the best LDS book for members that only want a slight introduction to some of the more colorful aspects of Mormon history.'"
("Mormon Books," at: http://mormonthink.com/books.htm)
"Mormon Women: Isn't It About Time We Shut Them Up?"
_____
--The Deadly Bite of the Mormon Sisterhood of Black Widow Spiders
Recall this "gem" from then-mission president and General Authority, Hartmon Rector Jr., about male vs. female power in the Mormon world:
"In order to attempt to get the male somewhere near even, the Heavenly Father gave him the Priesthood, or directing authority for the Church and home.
"Without this bequeath, the male would be so far below the female in power and influence that there would be little or no purpose for his existence. In fact, [he] would probably be eaten by the female as is the case with the black widow Spider.
"Therefore the Lord has made plain by revelations both ancient and modern that the male rules over the femaile but always with love and great respect."
(Hartman Rector, Jr., March 1981, quoted in Maxine Hanks, ed., "Women and Authority: Re-emerging Mormon Feminism," Chapter IV, "Historic Mormon Feminist Discourse--Excerpts" [Salt Lake City, Utah: Signature Books, 1992], pp. 118-19)
Brethern, guard yourself against the spider insider her.
_____
--Beam Me Back, Honey--to the Good Ol' 1950s
Move "forward" a few years in the Mormon calcified calendar to then-LDS Churh president Gordon B. Hinkley's comments on such subjects as the 1950s, women, and the priesthood--as they were idiotically uttered in an exchange with David Ransom, of the Australian Broadcasting Company, on its news show, "Compass,"
Recall how Hinckley proudly showcased Mormons as a wonderful blast from the 1950s past:
David Ranson: "Just looking at the [LDS] missionaries as I came in today, it reminded me very much of the '50s. The sort of values of the '50s in Australia.
Gordon B. Hinckley: "Yeah."
DR: "Do you agree?"
Gordon B. Hinckley: "It's cleaned up. The shirts on. White shirts, ties, suits. Conservative dress. Does remind you of the fifties. Contrast that with what you see today and you get the whole picture."
DR: "Do you think the '50s were a better time?"
Gordon B. Hinckley: "I think the '50s were a good time and I think this is a great time. I don't think we've retrograded across the world."
____
--Remember, Sisters: You're So Happy, So Satisfied and So Unagitated When We Keep You So Unequal
Recall what Hinckley had to say about not giving LDS women the priesthood--and their "happy" "satisfied" and "unagitated" status in the Mormon Church:
DR: "At present, women are not allowed to be priests in your Church. Why is that?"
Gordon B. Hinckley: "That's right, because the Lord has put it that way. Now women have a very prominent place in this Church. They have there own organization. Probably the largest women's organization in the world of 3.7 million members. And the women of that organization sit on Boards. Our Board of Education--things of that kind. They counsel with us. We counsel together. They bring in insight that we very much appreciate and they have this tremendous organization of the world where they grow and if you ask them they'll say, 'We're happy and we're satisfied.'"
DR: "They all say that?"
Gordon B. Hinckley: "Yes. All except, ah, oh, you'll find a little handful one or two here and there, but in 10 million members you expect that."
DR: "You say the Lord has put it that way. What do you mean by that?"
Gordon B. Hinckley: "I mean that's a part of His program. Of course it is, yes."
DR: "Is it possible that the rules could change in the future as the rules are on Blacks?"
Gordon B. Hinckley: "He could change them, yes. If He were to change them that's the only way it would happen."
DR: "So, you'd have to get a revelation?"
Gordon B. Hinckley: "Yes. But there's no agitation for that. We don't find it. Our women are happy. They're satisfied. These bright, able, wonderful women who administer their own organisation are very happy. Ask them. Ask my wife."
Gordon B. Hinckley: "Are you happy?" (to his wife . . . )
Mrs. H: "Very happy!" (laughs)
("'Compass' Interview with President Gordon B. Hinckley, Australian Broadcasting Company, aired 9 November 1997, at http://www.lds-mormon.com/hinckley.shtml)
*******
How much longer are you going to put up with this Sure Sign of the Pig?
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2014 02:49PM by steve benson.
--Shutting Up Pesky Female Mormon Historians
Recall how the Brethren's go-to bully-boy, Dallin Oaks, moved to ban female Mormon historians Linda King Newell and Vallen Tippetts Avery from giving talks in Church or firesides about their LDS-unapproved book, "Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith."
Below is a brief historical review on how anti-fem-for-men Oaks went after these two award-winning women Mormon authors with a vengeance for telling the truth about Joseph Smith's sordid reputation. It's a revealing case of how the LDS male elite has muzzled Mormon females who dare speak, in print, truth to LDS male-abused priesthood "power.
"'Mormon Enigmas: Linda Newell and Valeen Avery'
"John Larson of 'Mormon Expression' did a book review of Mormon Enigma' by Linda Newell and Valeen Avery. I’m not going to quote the whole podcast, but John gives a very interesting introduction to the book. In light of my recent post, 'Latter-day Dissent,' I thought I would continue the theme of how the church deals with intellectuals."
"'This book was published in the fall of 1984. There sort of a back story to it. Both of the women who wrote the book were faithful, active members. One has passed away; the other is still alive today. They both still remain active members of the Church. There was sort of a controversy around the book. A priesthood circular went all, I think all through Utah telling all priesthood leaders that they were not allowed to have either woman speak about the book in any setting.
"'At the time, during the 1980s, there was the "Know Your Religion" series, and it was really common to have firesides about people who knew something about something or the other. They got stopped immediately. The two women actually requested and were granted a meeting with the top brass; they met with [Dallin H.] Oaks and [Neal A.] Maxwell [both were apostles]. This would be around the early summer of 1985.
"'The meeting went back and forth. What was really confusing to the authors is that they remained members in good standing, although there were rumors going around that they would be excommunicated or whatever, but they were never told anything. That went out into that sort of secret circular letter and they only knew about it because they had friends who were stake presidents who shared it with them. When they met with the Brethren, they said, "what’s going on?"
"'Oaks said something very informative. I pulled this out of "Dialogue" magazine: "If 'Mormon Enigma' reveals any information that is detrimental to the reputation of Joseph Smith, then it is necessary to try to . . . stop its influence and that of its authors." They basically said, it doesn’t matter if what you are saying is true or not; if you’re going to say something that’s outside the normal line, we don’t want you talking about it.
"'Of course, the authors were blacklisted. You can read about the blacklisting in Arrington’s book, "Adventures of a Church Historian." He talks about it quite extensively. The Church maintains a blacklist of all the books and authors that are not allowed to be quoted. This effectively ruined the two women’s careers for speaking or engaging with the active Latter-day Saints, although you can still buy this book through Deseret Book. It remains sort of an enigma itself, so I guess that’s fitting for the book.'
"That’s the background of the book. . . .
". . . [T]he book won several awards. In 1984, it won an award from the Mormon History Association for best book. It also won an award from BYU, which sort of put the Church in a bind because they had recognized it as a great book and then they were stopping it at the same time.
"This sort of action really bothers me. As I mentioned in my previous post, I would like to start writing Mormon history articles and/or books. I’m looking to write good, honest history. This blacklisting just seems a bit sneaky and dishonest to me. I don’t think the rumors about these two women’s reputation is fair or Christlike. It’s as if the Church is saying in a Jack Nicholson voice, 'You can’t handle the truth.'
"Why can’t we be honest with our history? Is it really a good idea to suppress unflattering information? None of us are perfect. Joseph and Emma weren’t either. Is it really good to believe in whitewashed myths about them? Can’t truth be inspiring as well?"
("Mormon Enigmas: Linda Newell and Valeen Avery," on "Mormon Heretic: Stuff they don’t talk about in Sunday School," by "Mormon Heretic," 15 May 2011, at: http://www.mormonheretic.org/2011/05/15/mormon-enigmas-linda-newell-and-valeen-avery/)
Here's more on Oaks' vow to silence these uppity LDS female historians:
"When asked about an unflattering (though historically accurate) book about the life of Emma Smith called 'Mormon Enigma: The Life of Emma Hale Smith,' which sheds a very unfavorable light on Joseph's practice of polygamy, Elder Oaks said this: 'My duty as a member of the Council of the Twelve is to protect what is most unique about the LDS Church, namely the authority of priesthood, testimony regarding the restoration of the gospel, and the divine mission of the Saviour. Everything may be sacrificed in order to maintain the integrity of those essential facts. Thus, if "Mormon Enigma" reveals information that is detrimental to the reputation of Joseph Smith, then it is necessary to try to limit its influence and that of its authors.'"
(Apostle Dallin Oaks, quoted in "Inside the Mind of Joseph Smith: Psychobiography and the Book of Mormon, Introduction,footnote 28, p. xliii," as referenced under "Milk Before the Meat," on "New Order Mormon" website, at: http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?p=116703)
Here's an updated account of the initial ban and Oaks' effort to enforce it:
"'Mormon Enigma,' by Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery:
"Avery and Newell's 1984 bio of Emma Smith was referenced quite favorably in the 'Ensign' pre-publication and they were both invited by church groups, particularly Relief Society groups, to give firesides and presentations on their work in church. Then some time after the book was actually published, all of the invitations stopped rather suddenly. Upon investigating, the authors learned that a letter was sent from Church headquarters instructing wards and stakes not to allow the authors to address any Church group. I believe the two authors were also not to be allowed to speak in their own wards' sacrament meetings.
"They were finally granted an audience with Dallin Oaks, who, according to them, gave as the reason for the ban this gem of a quote:
"'My duty as a member of the Council of the Twelve is to protect what is most unique about the LDS church, namely the authority of priesthood, testimony regarding the restoration of the gospel, and the divine mission of the Savior. Everything may be sacrificed in order to maintain the integrity of those essential facts. Thus, if "Mormon Enigma" reveals information that is detrimental to the reputation of Joseph Smith, then it is necessary to try to limit its influence and that of its authors.' (Linda King Newell, 1992 Sunstone Pacific Northwest Symposium, "The Biography of Emma Hale Smith').
"The ban was lifted a few years later after quiet and persistent efforts by concerned parties behind the scene.
"'MormonThink' review: 'Mormon Enigma' is one of the books that was allowed to be read for class assignment at BYU when I attended there. It’s not dedicated to polygamy but deals with it quite a bit--mostly from Emma’s perspective. It's available at Deseret Book. Although it if a faithful book, it accurately describes some of the disturbing details of polygamy and mentions the Book of Mormon translation details that most members are unaware of. It's a fairly tame book and probably the best LDS book for members that only want a slight introduction to some of the more colorful aspects of Mormon history.'"
("Mormon Books," at: http://mormonthink.com/books.htm)
"Mormon Women: Isn't It About Time We Shut Them Up?"
_____
--The Deadly Bite of the Mormon Sisterhood of Black Widow Spiders
Recall this "gem" from then-mission president and General Authority, Hartmon Rector Jr., about male vs. female power in the Mormon world:
"In order to attempt to get the male somewhere near even, the Heavenly Father gave him the Priesthood, or directing authority for the Church and home.
"Without this bequeath, the male would be so far below the female in power and influence that there would be little or no purpose for his existence. In fact, [he] would probably be eaten by the female as is the case with the black widow Spider.
"Therefore the Lord has made plain by revelations both ancient and modern that the male rules over the femaile but always with love and great respect."
(Hartman Rector, Jr., March 1981, quoted in Maxine Hanks, ed., "Women and Authority: Re-emerging Mormon Feminism," Chapter IV, "Historic Mormon Feminist Discourse--Excerpts" [Salt Lake City, Utah: Signature Books, 1992], pp. 118-19)
Brethern, guard yourself against the spider insider her.
_____
--Beam Me Back, Honey--to the Good Ol' 1950s
Move "forward" a few years in the Mormon calcified calendar to then-LDS Churh president Gordon B. Hinkley's comments on such subjects as the 1950s, women, and the priesthood--as they were idiotically uttered in an exchange with David Ransom, of the Australian Broadcasting Company, on its news show, "Compass,"
Recall how Hinckley proudly showcased Mormons as a wonderful blast from the 1950s past:
David Ranson: "Just looking at the [LDS] missionaries as I came in today, it reminded me very much of the '50s. The sort of values of the '50s in Australia.
Gordon B. Hinckley: "Yeah."
DR: "Do you agree?"
Gordon B. Hinckley: "It's cleaned up. The shirts on. White shirts, ties, suits. Conservative dress. Does remind you of the fifties. Contrast that with what you see today and you get the whole picture."
DR: "Do you think the '50s were a better time?"
Gordon B. Hinckley: "I think the '50s were a good time and I think this is a great time. I don't think we've retrograded across the world."
____
--Remember, Sisters: You're So Happy, So Satisfied and So Unagitated When We Keep You So Unequal
Recall what Hinckley had to say about not giving LDS women the priesthood--and their "happy" "satisfied" and "unagitated" status in the Mormon Church:
DR: "At present, women are not allowed to be priests in your Church. Why is that?"
Gordon B. Hinckley: "That's right, because the Lord has put it that way. Now women have a very prominent place in this Church. They have there own organization. Probably the largest women's organization in the world of 3.7 million members. And the women of that organization sit on Boards. Our Board of Education--things of that kind. They counsel with us. We counsel together. They bring in insight that we very much appreciate and they have this tremendous organization of the world where they grow and if you ask them they'll say, 'We're happy and we're satisfied.'"
DR: "They all say that?"
Gordon B. Hinckley: "Yes. All except, ah, oh, you'll find a little handful one or two here and there, but in 10 million members you expect that."
DR: "You say the Lord has put it that way. What do you mean by that?"
Gordon B. Hinckley: "I mean that's a part of His program. Of course it is, yes."
DR: "Is it possible that the rules could change in the future as the rules are on Blacks?"
Gordon B. Hinckley: "He could change them, yes. If He were to change them that's the only way it would happen."
DR: "So, you'd have to get a revelation?"
Gordon B. Hinckley: "Yes. But there's no agitation for that. We don't find it. Our women are happy. They're satisfied. These bright, able, wonderful women who administer their own organisation are very happy. Ask them. Ask my wife."
Gordon B. Hinckley: "Are you happy?" (to his wife . . . )
Mrs. H: "Very happy!" (laughs)
("'Compass' Interview with President Gordon B. Hinckley, Australian Broadcasting Company, aired 9 November 1997, at http://www.lds-mormon.com/hinckley.shtml)
*******
How much longer are you going to put up with this Sure Sign of the Pig?
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2014 02:49PM by steve benson.
Interestingly, Hinckley seems to suggest that a "revelation" is more likely if there is "agitation" for a change.
Hmmm....!
Hmmm....!
"Our women are happy. They're satisfied. These bright, able, wonderful women who administer their own organisation are very happy. Ask them. Ask my wife."
Gordon B. Hinckley: "Are you happy?" (to his wife . . . )
Mrs. H: "Very happy!" (laughs)"
This quote reminds me of the book, Fascinating Womanhood, written by Helen Adelin who was my mother-in-law's first cousin. My mother-in-law actually helped edit Helen's books and used this book as her marital bible. One of the controversial aspects of Fascinating Womanhood is the open infantilizing of women....reflective of the way that Mormnism and other patriarchial religions teach and encourage their men to infantilize women.
I witnessed first hand an intelligent, capable woman acting like a little girl... and was treated like a little girl not only by her husband, (most of the family would agree she was smarter than him), but she was also treated like a helpless little girl by her own children and their spouses.
The Black Widow comment is not only telling of an imbedded fear the Mormon heirarchy of men have of women. It is also telling of how the church treats their general population of men - but for the priesthood which gives men God's sanctioned power over the women who would eat them alive.... men are purposeless, powerless cads that may as well not exist.
And Utah continues to double the national rate in the use of antidepressants.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2014 11:39AM by polly.
Gordon B. Hinckley: "Are you happy?" (to his wife . . . )
Mrs. H: "Very happy!" (laughs)"
This quote reminds me of the book, Fascinating Womanhood, written by Helen Adelin who was my mother-in-law's first cousin. My mother-in-law actually helped edit Helen's books and used this book as her marital bible. One of the controversial aspects of Fascinating Womanhood is the open infantilizing of women....reflective of the way that Mormnism and other patriarchial religions teach and encourage their men to infantilize women.
I witnessed first hand an intelligent, capable woman acting like a little girl... and was treated like a little girl not only by her husband, (most of the family would agree she was smarter than him), but she was also treated like a helpless little girl by her own children and their spouses.
The Black Widow comment is not only telling of an imbedded fear the Mormon heirarchy of men have of women. It is also telling of how the church treats their general population of men - but for the priesthood which gives men God's sanctioned power over the women who would eat them alive.... men are purposeless, powerless cads that may as well not exist.
And Utah continues to double the national rate in the use of antidepressants.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2014 11:39AM by polly.
Back in Jan/14, Steve and Tal had women on their mind. Ha.
But really. This topic has NOW become current while they were mentioning it back at the beginning of the year.
Does this make them more of a prophet than the Mormon prophet? It does in my book.
It's gratifying to pinpoint the salient points ahead of the curve.
I responded yesterday on Steve's thread about women and the priesthood. I had meant to include a thought in my post about GBH referring to Mormon females as "our women", which connotes ownership. That actually woke me up last night, thinking of how twisted it is and how much in the past Mormon leaders remain, rather than being prophets and seers and revelators, as they claim.
Fortunately, others pointed this out in Steve's other thread. I had focused on the fact of GBH (erroneously) speaking for all Mormon women by saying "our women are happy" but he compounded his rampant paternalism by using the term "our women" in the first place.
Shades of the polygamous past of the Mormon prophets and other fatcats. {{{shudder}}}
And if "our women" are so happy - what explains the well known over-the-top use of antidepressants in Utah?
I feel sad for all those "happy" women.
But really. This topic has NOW become current while they were mentioning it back at the beginning of the year.
Does this make them more of a prophet than the Mormon prophet? It does in my book.
It's gratifying to pinpoint the salient points ahead of the curve.
I responded yesterday on Steve's thread about women and the priesthood. I had meant to include a thought in my post about GBH referring to Mormon females as "our women", which connotes ownership. That actually woke me up last night, thinking of how twisted it is and how much in the past Mormon leaders remain, rather than being prophets and seers and revelators, as they claim.
Fortunately, others pointed this out in Steve's other thread. I had focused on the fact of GBH (erroneously) speaking for all Mormon women by saying "our women are happy" but he compounded his rampant paternalism by using the term "our women" in the first place.
Shades of the polygamous past of the Mormon prophets and other fatcats. {{{shudder}}}
And if "our women" are so happy - what explains the well known over-the-top use of antidepressants in Utah?
I feel sad for all those "happy" women.
Thanks, Steve.
That Oaks quote clearly demonstrates to me that he knows it's all a fiction.
A fiction that Oaks has sworn to sacrifice ANYTHING in order to defend.
That Oaks quote clearly demonstrates to me that he knows it's all a fiction.
A fiction that Oaks has sworn to sacrifice ANYTHING in order to defend.
steve benson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Both of the
> women who wrote the book were faithful, active
> members. One has passed away; the other is still
> alive today. They both still remain active members
> of the Church.
One dead, one alive, both still active? I guess the definition of "active members" has broadened somewhat since I left.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Both of the
> women who wrote the book were faithful, active
> members. One has passed away; the other is still
> alive today. They both still remain active members
> of the Church.
One dead, one alive, both still active? I guess the definition of "active members" has broadened somewhat since I left.
I yearn for the day when a wife, set up by her priesthood ruling authority to answer his question a certain way, looks him straight in the eye and declares, "Your framing of that question is manipulative and I refuse to answer, Infact, you should answer it."