I don't post a lot here, but have been a lurker for years. I'll get around to posting my "ah hah" story maybe this week, but my current status is "inactive". I haven't resigned mainly to keep pressure off my wife as she is still an active member.

Our current status is that we just agree to disagree. She refuses to listen to any of the topics, so we just agree to either not talk about religion or we talk about pretty benign topics. We had a really bad marital blow up this last week, mostly my fault I will have to admit, but in our post blow up conversation I indicated that the inability to talk to her about the issues of the church created a big schism in our relationship. She is my best friend and we can freely talk about anything else, except religion and I feel it is an issue in our relationship.

She then goes to church this last Sunday and gets talking to her bishop (I don't claim him as 'my' bishop), and brings it up. Now, everyone sit down for this. Her bishop tells her that I am right. She should study the controversial topics as she should be aware of the issues and make an educated decision on religion rather than just being a blind follower.

He himself has studied and continues to study the issues of the church and he just chooses to put it on the shelf. He then tells my wife that he thinks that I have better morals than most of the ward as I believe what I believe based on prayer, study, and emotional introspection and he admires me greatly for that.

Now I haven't been to church for over three years, but he judges me on how my children act (2 older boys are out, 2 younger girls are in). He says that my children are the most respectful kids he has ever seen and treats people with genuine respect and do things not because a religion tells them to, but because they are guided by their own moral compass.

I about died of shock hearing this coming from an LDS bishop. I do not view myself as any great moral figure, I just try and teach the good principles that I grew up learning from the LDS church. I find it awesome to see a bishop respond as he just did to my wife. However, I find it sad that I have had to "remove" myself and my children from the church to teach them good principles the church taught me. I usually tell people that the church left me as I still live by most of their good principles. It just makes me very sad how the church no longer follows good principles.

Anyway, I wanted to share that story of one of the few great bishops that the LDS church has.

Nice to find a bishop that allows his humanity to overtake years of TSCC conditioning.

Well that made me raise an eyebrow. Wow. Unusual.

Your bishop is one in a million. Is your DW going to read the materials now?

I wonder if the bish is a NOM or RFM poster?

" I do not view myself as any great moral figure..."

When the bishop thinks you are, what does that say about the "morality" of most of his "flock" (the ward)?

In another post, I mentioned that even some TBMs appreciate honesty rather than duplicity. I think this is a good example of that. He's in the minority, though...

Wow, sounds like an episode of the twilight zone … de de de de, de de de de.
How will he keep his flock in line with an attitude like that?

“Ya’ know, you don’t really need the church to be a good person, just navigate your own way through life.”
"And hey, if you can’t afford to tithe, don’t worry about it…”

Maybe he’s decided to take them down from the inside? Good for him.
"Go now my children, fly, be free..."

Wrong holiday: This is Groundhog Day not April Fools!

My DW has indicated that she will, but she wants to do it slowly and on her terms, which I am all for. Based on our discussion, she doesn't really know what the doctrines of the church are. I have asked her "Do you believe in x, y, and z?" and her answer is "No". I have told her that she really doesn't "know" her religion and after this last Sunday's conversation with the bishop, she is now seeing that.

So, her direction is to ask the missionaries over and get if from a simplistic view and work on up, and then listen to what I have to bring from an informational point of view. I don't care how she does it. I don't even care that she agrees with my point of view of the topics. I just want a partner that I can talk freely to and quit tip toeing around the religious subjects.

There are some good bishops around. Luckily you have one now when you need him.

Always be careful of bishops. Even the best of them can turn on a dime.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Always be careful of bishops. Even the best of them can turn on a dime.

True

LOL (Yes, I got it.)

That's awesome! Our bishop is actually a pretty nice guy too.

Will your DW read the essays? Those are at least on lds dot org.

To answer some of your questions, my DW has agreed to have some conversations from my point of view. I will eventually lead her into the essays, but I feel it is important that she understands what the core doctrine of the church is. She says that she goes to church to hear inspirational stories and it makes her feel good, so I don't even think she knows what the core doctrinal principles are. That is why she wants to start with the missionaries to build a foundation of reference to compare against the topics I want to bring up. So we will take it slow and easy. Milk before meat (gag, I know).

She already knows I don't believe in the temple or endowment. I don't wear garments or go to church and our marriage has survived that. My only hope and expectation is just to be ably to finally be able to freely have religious discussions with her again without her getting pissed off at me.

Any tips to slowly move into the discussions are welcome. I feel like I only have one shot at this without her slamming the doors on me.

I went to my bishop and shared everything I had learned after a year of studying all the materials I could get my hands on. My wife was with me and we both felt it fair to let the bishop know. His response .... "I know how you feel I also struggled and went 6 years without praying." He still needs us to help in the ward and wasn't the slight bit phased with 2nd anointing, polygamy, BOA, BOM origin, etc. His response to me was that I have to have faith. Also, I should read Crucible of Doubt and the church essays. I believe it's the standard response that the leaders are asked to give. I know that many struggle but stay because a social need is being met. Many members are really great people. Let's face it, Mormonism is baked into us. I tend to be a cafeteria style member.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2015 02:01PM by cokezero.

I had a similar experience with my bishop. I'm a NOM flying under the radar and I'm one of the Clerk members. One night we were alone together in the office and when the topic came up I gave him as much of a pseudo testimony as I could - which was to basically talk about all the good things I could think of about the church without saying anything about J.S. or the BofM. Kind of like counting your blessings.

He then told me that I had a more "sincere" testimony than most people in the ward and that he trusted me and my work ethic over just about anybody (I'd been in the office for a year and half).

Now don't that beat all. I feel guilty - if he only knew how I really felt about the church.

I find it a bit humorous that she's going to invite the missionaries over. They're 18 year old kids who know next to nothing. What they do know has been taught to them by the church. We all know the church keeps their members in the dark on many many things. Your wife probably knows as much or more than missionaries do.

I would be interested to hear how that goes. The missionaries could end up deconverted themselves if they get to know their religion.

Wonder if your wife would be interested in reading the church essays herself, maybe they could help her understand you better?
(at gospel topics of LDS.org)
They are also linked at: http://mormonessays.com



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2015 02:54PM by optional2.

There are more NOM type bishops out there than the church would like to believe. Remember that NOM is one of the stepping stones on the path to full blown apostacy. Many of us have been there.

Bishops get to see the true nature of how the church functions, which is a good way to kill a testimony. Some react by becoming even more rabid TBMs, especially if they're bucking for higher positions. Others don't really want to be bishops, but care about people and try hard to serve their wards. There are a lot of NOMs in the latter group.

Um, I was in shock reading your story (or that of your wife). Hang in there, and keep it up.

I'm also in shock reading it.. Are you SURE she was in a Mormon Church?

Maybe she accidentally walked in to a Catholic church? Did her breath smell of coffee after her meeting with the bishop?

CONGRATULATIONS, "Mickeymousemormon"!!!

He is an awesome Bishop who "gets it". He just can't say so.

Wishing you the best with your wife. You sound like an incredible husband and father. I know you'll give her the patience she needs to face the facts. Sure she will go to the most faithful blind believers first, but keep the encouragement going that will lead her into learning her religion better.

Way cool post!

Remember, Bishops are called just like everyone else to a job. They didn't apply. This guy may be feeling the same things you are about the church, but he is doing it for the family or whatever reason at this point in his life.

With an objective mindset like that, that guy probably won't be a MORmON member much longer, and he will be out as bishop even sooner. Then he will be replaced by some mad dog rabid MORmON believer who will strictly enforce the MORmON Line. THAT is how it works in a cult.

+1

Don't look this gift horse in the mouth. I would remind her the the current bish has told her that your reasons for non-participation and unbelief are valid and her ignorance of the issues is the cause of damage to the marriage. Figure out how to instill a sense of urgency to get her reading.

Next week she could get advice from the SP that overrides the bishes advice and you're done.

You've been given a rare and short lived gift. A thousand other spouses last week were told it'd be best to cut their loved ones loose and work on plugging in a more obedient and faithful one.

When I came out to my wife she asked me to not drink. I asked her then to read rough stone rolling so we were on the same page regarding the history. She said she can't read it right now. Says it would be like making friends with the mistress who I cheated on her with. That seems reasonable. And so now I drink beer and we're all happy.

Let her study on her own too. Usually Mormons get put on defense mode when talking about the problems of the church and they don't like defending the church to someone, especially if they know they are on the losing side of the argument. I suggest print off the Letter to the CES Director and leave it lying around the house. She might get curious and take a peak on her own without your pressure of you "proving her wrong." I can almost guarantee her view of Mormonism will dramatically change after reading that.

Good luck!

Dear Mickey Mouse,

Be amazed at nothing, eh?

Great post!


I am offering up a 'birds-eye view' here and ask you to be open to this possibility:

You mentioned that:

"I just try and teach the good principles that I grew up learning from the LDS church."

"teach them good principles the church taught me."

"I still live by most of their good principles."


I would bet my bottom dollar that your PARENTS/GUARDIANS taught you these traits; not TSCC...


~Breedum