My first post was almost a month ago...http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1481904,1505258#msg-1505258 I've been working on myself and have been untangling from Mormonism ever since. It's tough, but SO REWARDING! I have more self confidence than I ever have. I want to thank those of you who commented on my first post. Your words were a lifeline for me. :)
I have some updates...This occurs all within the last few weeks. So, I met with the bishop to give him my concerns stemmed from the essays from lds.org, questions I stole from the CES letter, linkingarms.org, and quotes from prophets and apostles I had collected regarding the downward trend for freedom of thought....awesome. I told bishop and husband that I would love for the church to be true..(it would be a hell of a lot easier with extended family on both sides)..Maybe there really are answers to these questions? (nope) We didn't discuss anything in great detail. I just stressed that if I couldn't resolve anything I was ready to resign and just wanted respect. My husband came with me and we asked the bishop if he had any advice on how to navigate a split faith marriage...in particular, how to compromise in teaching our two (under 4) daughters. He actually gave some good advice and encouraged husband to read up on the issues, have real conversations about them, and stressed being respectful of each other's beliefs. Wow.
Next day: bishop asks for a copy of my patriarchal blessing.... I gave it to him. I knew he wasn't going to give up.

He called and asked if I would be ok with him meeting with my husband ALONE. That made me feel uncomfortable, (ears burning) but I knew husband wouldn't throw me under the bus. Husband comes home, admits bishop asked if I suffer from any mental illness.....!?! He told him the truth. Yes. I suffer from depression and anxiety issues I've had since high school. (I'm 30 years old and have been on an SSRI for about 2 years) It helps!!!!

--OK reasoning for daring to continue this process with the bishop...I wanted my husband to know I am sincere and feel strongly that all devout LDS people have the right to know the issues and make up their own minds! I honestly wanted husband to see through all of it and join me.

So, bishop comes over to our home the following evening. Here's the gist:

Me reiterating my story to bishop:

After I learned all that I have I realized I can't be a member anymore and be honest with myself. I went through a tremendous amount of suffering and guilt for not being able to believe. I finally made a decision that the church wasn't true and prayed and prayed and told God (higher power-whoever he is) my plan to not be mormon anymore. I felt the SAME comforting feeling and peace that I ALWAYS associated with the HOLY GHOST as a devout mormon. Interesting... I told him I feel at peace and I'm excited for my future.

Bishop says he's studied quite a bit of anti-mormon literature and it has strengthened his testimony. He thanked me for sharing some more information with him. He mentioned that great men in history made mistakes all the time even though they did a great things...George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King....(what!? I'm pretty sure they never claimed they were prophets of God and recorded revelations that taught people how to gain eternal life and made all kinds of crazy promises that are based on lies. hmmmm)

Bishop's turn continues: feel more guilt yelrome....

#1Serendipitous thing happened....he stumbled across an ancestor's journal in which said ancestor bears testimony of the truthfulness of the work and how he felt real power from God as he was baptized while he learned from and lived with Father Morley and his family. (Isaac Morley is my ancestor, bishop knew this. My line descends from his daughter Cordelia Morley Cox who was sealed to Joseph Smith after he died. He apparently asked her to marry him when she was younger....not sure how young though. She said no, she liked someone else. No threatening from Joseph that time, no promises of exaltation. No angels or swords or anything.) Bishop believes our ancestors are reaching out to remind us of the importance of the work. We can't let them down....

#2Reiterates Christ's admonition to feed his sheep. Says my young daughters are his sheep. They will greatly suffer if I don't teach them the restored gospel and live my life keeping the covenants I've made in the temple.

#3This is the BEST one: He tells a story of a good friend he had who was not LDS. They were business associates. This friend suffered from bipolar disorder...ahhhh a mental illness...(remember private meeting with husband discussing my mental health). He remembers watching his friend suffer and begin to lose his ability to perform in the workplace. He tells a story of a time they took a business trip together. The plane flew through a pocket of very strong turbulence. Bishop says he was scared to death and gripped the seat. He looked over at his friend and he was completely relaxed and at peace. He asked friend how was so relaxed and friend said he realized he wasn't in control of the situation and at once in his life he felt peace that he might not have to suffer anymore. (something like that) Bishop continues and says his family moved. Bishop said good bye to this friend. Friend says he is doing great and feels at peace with his life and is headed down a great path and is excited for his future. Friend commits suicide two weeks later. Bishop knows this friend was deceived and was going down a dark path. (my feeling of peace when I prayed wasn't from God)....has anyone heard a turbulence story like this before?

Back to me: I don't remember how it ended. He could tell from my frozen body language (I couldn't think of a single thing to say) and inability to look at him that it was his turn to leave. Husband walked him out. I know I don't believe this, but y'all, it hurt. (I can be sarcastic about it now, it's been long enough)

In my opinion: NO HUMAN BEING HAS THE RIGHT to invalidate another human being in that way, even if you think you are in the right. I don't have a desire to write a scathing letter or anything. Letting it out on forums is therapy enough. :) I have declined any other kind of communication with "priesthood authority." The bishop had good intentions and wanted to keep me in the fold, but he only made it easier to really begin my transition.

You know, I'm glad I went through with this meeting. My husband saw firsthand how damaging this is. Since then he has softened up, and has been doing more of his own research. I shared the Great Awakening slides someone had suggested and he went through them all. I don't allow myself to get my hopes up all the way, but let's just say husband hasn't been wearing garments for a few weeks.

I'm still on my journey, as far as beliefs...i believe in being wary of absolutes, hanging on to virtues that make me a good person, and loving life and making great memories with those that I love. Thanks for reminding me that I'm not alone. :)

Wonderful! I hope your husband sees through the lies.

thanks!

unbelievable, just unbelievable. it is just amazing how people give so much power and authority over themselves to their neighbors. Good luck. I'm wondering do you live in Utah?

Thanks! Utah, yes.

You are the new pioneer. You have been lied to. It hurts. The Church always makes such a bid deal about truth. If you want to save your marriage, you need to show husband you are sincere. Just because the Church is not TRUE, it does contain some truths that are helpful in raising families. Once you determine what those are for you, be sure you have a sit down with your husband.

Thank you. Husband and I are closer than ever. We both agree there are some great takeaways...that's just what I'm doing. Taking a few things and running! :)

Nothing infuriates me more than someone telling me I can't trust my thoughts because I am mentally ill. That's what got me stuck at BYUI, because I believed that my hatred of the place did not come from me, but rather from my depression.

I have been told over and over that I can't trust my own thoughts because of my illness and I'm sick of it. I was told to put my doubts about Mormonism on a shelf because I was mentally ill and not well enough to approach it objectively. I was told my doubts were not me, that my feelings of depression invalidated my negative feelings towards the church, that my depression invalidated the fact that I recognized the harm the church had caused me.

Good for you, cutting him off. That's an abuse technique known as 'gaslighting', where the abuser attempts to get you to doubt your own perception, memories, or experiences, through methods ranging from outright lying to you to simple condescension. It's incredibly common in the church, especially from leaders and parents when you bring up any doubts. Regardless of whether or not he did it intentionally, he tried to gaslight you and that is not healthy.

Thanks so much for your response. It reminded me that there's nothing wrong with me or you. There is a BIG SOMETHING wrong with the church. No one has the right to question how we perceive our own feelings, ever. I truly believe that. Let's keep being strong and not put up with it. :) Good luck!

The way the church (local leaders) treated my wife with a variety of issues helped to spur my decision to leave. I was investigating my way out...they just gave me a helpful nudge.

I wouldn't be surprised that your DH wasn't offended and maddened by how the bishop treated you in your home.

"I was investigating my way out...they just gave me a helpful nudge."

That's exactly what it was. :) Thanks.

Example #3 happens a lot.

I guess the "theory" behind it is that once an apostate "loses the spirit" they have no chance in being able to tell good from evil, and will be swept up in a whirlwind of sin,doubt and despair.

This may actually be somewhat true of some tbm folks, who cannot fathom independent moral reasoning or independence from groupthink and who really would be lost outside their little world of correlated bromides.

TBMs will not even consider that those making an informed choice to leave can be happier, more content, calm, etc.

My final analysis of this is that most tbms "deep down" do not really believe in grace or forgiveness. They cling to the exhausting cycle of guilt, unfulfilled expectations and busy work as they really can't imagine much else being from "the Lord".

So sad.

"In my opinion: NO HUMAN BEING HAS THE RIGHT to invalidate another human being in that way, even if you think you are in the right."

This is so absolutely right. I find that a big problem within the church ranks is that people's feelings are invalidated all the time. You can only trust the HG, which seems to be missing in actions constantly. Good for you for seeing this. Yes, it hurts because it leaves you confused as to what happened and it leaves you question yourself.

You know, I'm a convert and now that I've left the lds church I have become my pre-mormon me again. I used to have confidence and trust my feelings and my thoughts but during all my mormon years I tried so hard to seek the HG and seek the counsel of the brethern, follow the commandments and so on. That just messed up my own decision-making process. I questioned myself constantly, probably because what I thought was very different of what I should think and should do.

I had a hard time even hearing that the lds church was damaging to people, but now I believe that it damages people and invalidating who they are, what they think and how they feel is just one of the damaging practices of mormonism. Missionaries and bishops seem to be trained so well in that regard.

Good luck in your journey out.

D

"I used to have confidence and trust my feelings and my thoughts.."

Thanks so much. It's very liberating.

Your story is heartbreaking and amazing. I have read your posts and this is still a fresh transition, but your doing great and I hope your husband follows you out. You don't need to meet with the bishop anymore. He really disrespected you when you seemed very respectable to him. Don't let him think he has any authority over you, because he doesn't. Just another guy in your community.

Thanks so much. No more meetings, I promise. :)

I guess I’m having another one of my cranky days where the blatant manipulation these bishops pull just makes me want to dig my eye out with a fork. Maybe it’s from being involved in another thread where I’ve watched a person in a severe mental crisis get preyed on by mishies, and is now being coerced into a baptism by them.

So, regarding your post yelrome.

>> Says my young daughters are his sheep. They will greatly suffer if I don't teach them the restored gospel… <<

I’ve heard of preachers from other Christian denominations say things such as, “…you could greatly benefit from letting Christ into your life…” and similar such statements. However, saying ‘your children will greatly suffer’ because he, yes HE, doesn’t teach them the restored gospel? What a goof. It’s your job to teach your children, however you see fit, not his. Unbelievable. What a fear tactic.

And how about poking at your mental issues to try and break you down and get you to submit. Oh, I knew a guy who had depression once, he reminds me of you; he killed himself. You’d have to be a full on sociopath to be that insensitive toward another human being. “Hey look, this person has a wound, let’s poke at it and see if I can get what I want out of them that way”. An alternative might be to actually try and offer the person some real help? Instead, he sees it as an opportunity. Once again, totally unbelievable, except it actually happened.

I know people make excuses for these bishops by saying things like ‘it’s just what they’ve learned to believe’, or ‘they sincerely think they are doing their best’, but come on; these are cruel manipulations they are pulling on people. Get a head, get some self-awareness, and get some personal accountability Mr. Bishop. Grab a brain.

Sorry for the rant. I’d say your mental health is in much better shape than your Bishops. Are they all insane? Obviously, you are through trying to find some middle ground with him, right?

I’m glad your getting out. Congratulations, best wishes, and welcome to sanity.

Thanks so much. No more middle ground for me.

When your bishop told you about his friend, he was giving you a covert threat. And it really wasn't that covert -- "leave the church and you, too, may suffer grievously." This is a very spiritually immature way of looking at how the world works.

The goal of any faith journey should be to develop your own moral compass. I remember as a young teen reasoning out that birth control was a gift from a loving god to his/her people. This was in opposition to traditional Catholic teaching. Yes, churches can teach you right from wrong, but they are ultimately human institutions and it is okay to say, "I disagree with that for a good and valid reason."

Your bishop is also covertly insulting people of other faiths (and no particular faith.) Their are plenty of good, decent, kind, and moral people *who are not Mormon.*

It sounds like things are going well for you. Good luck, and keep us updated. We are rooting for you!

Thank you very much for your support. :)

Well, I wouldn't wear the label of mental illness just because of anxiety and/or depression. And one has to wonder if these conditions aren't being caused by the church anyway. Best to you sweet girl; we're here for you.

JAR

[BTW, just in case the PC police are monitoring, "sweet girl" is a local colloquialism, used by men and women alike, of genuine affection toward a daughter, or any woman who is young enough to be a daughter. At my age, it applies to a lot of people!]

The next time anyone brings up "mistakes" ask them for a specific example. The church doesn't admit to any mistakes. For example, church very clearly claims that Joseph was commanded of God to practice teenage polygamy and polyandry.

That bishop is a real piece of work. IMO, NOT a nice guy with your best interests at heart. He wants people to stay Mormon (especially on his watch) and he'll say just about anything to get them to stay. He doesn't mind saying and doing things that will add to depression and anxiety in order to get his way. He doesn't mind threatening parents with some horrible future for their little kids. He will say whatever he has to say. He has no problem pulling your family members (spouse) aside to find out your most personal information so he can use it against you.

He's a classic asshole IMO.

Hell would freeze over before someone like that came through my front door again.

I'm proud of you for sticking to your guns and going with what you KNOW is best for you. That's the best way to conquer anxiety and depression. I've done that myself, so have some experience in that department. My anxiety was the first thing to go when I left the church.

I wouldn't have called it intimidation. In my book, it was emotional abuse. Either way, he was being a real tool and you should cut your losses. Congratulations sticking to your guns like that.

You validated Cordelia Morley Cox, who was coerced in her day also!

This creep met with your husband in order to determine the most vulnerable area of your life, then literally threatened you (with your life) out of "concern"?! His only concern was losing two tithe payers from his roster, and more junior breeders.

These are the people they put in charge! Emotional terrorists, wrecking those they have contact with.

You will continue feeling stronger and happier, and your husband will take notice. You need to go out and celebrate this weekend. Cheers to you!

His treatment of you was supposed to make you want to come back to church? I've known enemies who were kinder than him. Reading your story turned my stomach. Because of his extremely rude behavior you should never step foot back in church.

Your views are so detrimental you shouldn't be allowed to talk to your daughters about them? I would have marched him right out the door. At least you know you made the right choice to distance yourself from this poisonous organization. Make sure your daughters are longer poisoned by it. He said such inappropriate things, too bad he will never feel ashamed.

Thanks for sharing yelrome. It gets better, take courage and keep looking beyond the church for answers and support. Take your time before you jump into anything. If you are looking into a Christian path, below is a link to an excellent video you might enjoy. Part of a larger series for those transitioning from mormonism. The church really does control so much of how we perceive the world, recovery takes time. Here is the link. Good luck and hang in there.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DBcjcmXz6X0

Great link.

Best wishes to you- you are doing the right thing.
May I suggest you join up with other people who are traveling on the same road? I've heard the meet ups are helpful!

As a non-mo, one thing that struck me about your story is the fact that he didn't take you word on wanting to leave, he had to meet with your husband privately to discuss it. It's very patronizing. He's treating you like a child- confirming with your husband/parent that you mean what you say.

It's more proof of the misogyny of the Mormon Church. Heaven forbid that you, a mere woman, have the ability to think for yourself and make your own life choices.

When I was TBM and in leadership roles, I said some pretty mean stuff too. I could have been your bishop making those kind of emotional threats.

I would have walked away not even thinking I was being emotionally abusive. I look back now and I'm ashamed of myself. What was I thinking? How could I allow myself to act that way and not even realize I was being a a-hole?

I was convinced saying those kind of things was what the church wanted, what the big guy in the sky would approve of. Being harsh up front then showing an increase of love afterwards, or some church sh!t like that.