First, it was the dismissal of the paid custodians.

Second, it was the moratorium on new temple announcements for the foreseeable future, coming from Monson himself.

Recently, I'm hearing lots of anecdotes here and elsewhere (Bednar talk in Arkansas?) that new meetinghouse construction is being curtailed significantly, even in Utah. (Also didn't Bednar mention that members will have to adjust to new realities in the future? - I'm paraphrasing here.)

Also, talks about Central America, for example, of now being required to be "self-sufficient" if that's the proper term.

Now, the Church is ending its defined pension program for BYU and church employees that began service within the last 5 years.

Am I missing any? What else is going on that indicate, despite the overwhelming evidence that the Church should be in tip-top financial condition, that the austerity continues?

I have also heard reports of paid positions in the COB being converted to 'missionary' positions.

yup, Granny and Gramps could be called to file paperwork at the COB.

They're loaded but cashing out.

What legally could stop them getting a 'revelation' declaring the Q15 and 70s as the final saved and giving them the money.

Regular members do not own stock in the Mormon church.
So,in effect, that is happening already.

I have said here and elsewhere for the past 5 years that the church is broke.


Everything they do points to them being cash strapped.

I was just speaking to a building person that said they are no longer putting multiple pianos in buildings. They are putting 2 pianos and the rest keyboards instead.

Also, they are no longer building stake centers in some areas, relying on technology to deliver to large audiences.

TSCC in 2016 is Enron in 2001. The party is over, from a money perspective.

As one who has a degree in music, pipe organ performance, and has played numerous recitals in the SLC tabernacle, TSCC has turned ultra-stingy on musical instruments in meetinghouses. Pipe organs are no longer approved due to costs and maintenance expenses. The approved electronic organs are whittled down to 2 or 3 models. I've seen a lot of the Allen AP-22 organs installed. Granted the technology is superior to what they were making 25 years ago, but to SAVE the precious LD$ Inc. money they don't use Allen keyboards. Rather they use imported crap that makes the overall price savings of about $3,000 per organ.

In 1980, the cost to replace a ward building's organ was $13,000. The stake center models were $17,000. In today's prices with inflation those numbers would be: $37,000 and $48,000 respectively. However, the approved Allen model today costs the church $17,000 with the crappy keyboards. TSCC is NOT willing to pay $20,000 for the 'normal' decent keyboards.

Personally, I won't touch these crappy instruments. It makes playing with technique impossible. TSCC does not care. It's one more measure to CUT CO$T$ and is indicative of their financial problems. The Q15 would rather have brand new SUVs every two years. Moreover, TSCC is a fraud, so I won't be giving my talents away for free anymore.

How much key board "technique" does it take to play "We thank thee O God for a Profit" er uh I mean "We thank thee O God for a Prophet" ?

Listen to this and tell me what you think of the performer's technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCVRCXzh_bs

What is the most difficult Hymn to play that is found in the LDS Hymnal ? ("All creatures of our God and King" ?)

...some outpost Branches out here in Fort Apache country are already seeing shrinking attendance and reduced support from SL. The numbers don't lie. Minimal tithes from the cash-strapped attendees are taking it's toll in the form of lessened subsidization coming in from the Church. I don't know how much longer it can continue; maybe the Central/South American "self-sufficiency" model will need to be implemented to "encourage" the members to pony-up..........yikes!

No matter how much $ a stake sends up to SLC, there are no fun programs left because not enough is returned to the local level.
They are bleeding the stakes white.

On top of that, there is no accounting and no voting on how the money is appropriated overall.
A ridiculous state of affairs and also insulting.

Expecting people to pay big money to SLC only to be told it's no one's business how they use it is the height of arrogance.

Well I gotta make a correction on your choice of custodial curtailment as first sign.

Correlation was first introduced at a general PM I attended as a deacon. It was cleverly implemented slowly, leading to the other things you named in the OP.

The process started with dropping road shows, then green n gold dances, and eventually the virtual shutdown of those chapel kitchens that had churned out many a tasty and even memorable feast.

Most Shummy reunions are held in chapels. Bring yer own would be ok but most of my clan are fat and addicted to Costco cuisine, using that term loosly. Any homeade fare is sugar and fat mostly . . . . where have all the flowers gone?

Progressive penny pinching policies were masked with pious preaching and don't play with your pecker Packer style punitive pronouncements.

And here we all are.

Ah Shumms, you always had a way with women and words. Boner.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2015 08:36PM by byuboner.

Shummy, as a wordsmith you are in your own league.

Great reading.

It could just be the push for higher profits that all corporations have. They already have an over-sized sales force. They are already doing everything they can to get members to pay tithing short of sending them invoices. They already charge extra for charity work and mission funds. They encourage members to buy 1 year's more food than they need. They even mandate that members wear LDS Inc underwear. The only way for them to make more profits is to cut costs.

Not defending LDSCorp, just offering a bit of counterpoint...

Couldn't all these things be signs of competent management of a dying product? Maybe they're not broke but simply reacting to shrinkage of the religious division of the corp.

Remember they have access to hard data on resignations and activity and tithing levels. Even just estimating from the outside we're pretty sure the era of growth is over; the leaders would be able to see for certain.

They may just be starting a long slow glide slope to a soft landing. Like Phillip Morris extricating themselves from tobacco.

...excellent overview. Probably as close to the truth as we can surmise...less other hard data.

One thing is for certain: they're not increasing their tithing revenue. They will stop building meeting houses. "Use your homes, local libraries, donut shops", they will tell the members.

They have run their course. This is the beginning of the end.

I agree that this is the beginning of the end for the "church" side of the corporation. The business side is still making a great deal of money and will likely continue on for a very long time.

...well, wouldn't you agree that the "business side", for the most part, is, and has always been reliant on some amount, or percentage, of member tithes to function?...because it's probable that the Church rolls the member tithing into it's general fund, then disperses it into other accounts, and then claims otherwise?

No, I believe that they church wouldn't risk losing their non-profit status by commingling funds -- especially if the for profit side is profiting nicely.

So do you see it as a quasi-admission that the religion is unsustainable, no matter how many essays Pres. Newsroom puts out?

...well, not being an expert, but viewing the various doctrinal and PR contortions that the Church is having to deal with, it would seem that IF the religious side of the door, (LDS Church), is starting to slowly close, and IF revenue streams are being reduced, coming in from the Church side, THEN the Corporate Business side ventures will be impacted. I don't think that is unrealized and unrealistic. Adjustments are most likely being addressed and implemented as we speak. We know the Church legal staff, COB accountants, and financial advisors have a huge impact on Church policy. I think we will see many more financial AND doctrinal changes going forward, in an attempt to stabilize the monster that the Church has become. It is not an easy chart to plot given what we know as the Church's over-extension into the commercial and corporate world...........

Didn't they start having missionaries live in members' homes? How has that turned out?

I lived in a member's home for several months in 1961 during my mission. The elder that followed me eventually married their daughter after returning home. He served a full mission and was a friend in high school. I'm almost sure that nothing improper occurred and she did not have an "untimely birth". She just was the beautiful daughter of a wealthy doctor and was a "good catch" for any lucky guy.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2015 09:20PM by Templar.

GBH's love affair with temple building is fast becoming an albatross around their collective necks. The real indication of austerity will be when they make them seasonal to save heating costs or possibly convert them to split ward/temple use and sell off many of the existing residential ward sites.

Our mason lodges all function as multiple use sites. The lodge itself is used for non-degree masonic meetings such as the annual installation of officers when not 'opened' in one of the degrees. I don't see why mormon temples would need to be any different. For example, what would prevent using the creation room as a class room when not being used for endowments or using the baptism for the dead font for all mormon baptisms.

I would guess that the profit will say that "after much fasting and prayer" the lord has revealed that his temples are to be more accessible to all members or some such reasoning for the changes.

All they have to do is point at all the different ways JS used the Kirtland temple.

Many temples do not run full schedules or are by appointment only.

Boy that sounds like a risky move. The superawesome specialness of the temple is part of it's perceived value to the remaining tithers. Tinker with that and you risk losing tithing revenue even more.

It would be like selling Chanel #5 air freshener.

That's been partially true since the inception of the missionary program; people have always rented our rooms (for free or for a small fee) to missionaries. My guess is the policy now is that if you rent out part of your home to the church, you're encouraged to make it a 'donation' and not charge the church rent, although I know for a fact one woman in the ward my parents attend rents out her house to 2 sister missionaries and they pay some of the rent/mortgage. It's the only way she could pay for a house. I hope the church doesn't breathe down her neck to lower the rent or let them live their rent free; she's in her late 50's, makes minimum wage, and has depression issues. Sounds like a bullseye target for the church to manipulate and take advantage of.

It's possible that they are paying for fewer apartments, or consolidating the missionaries into big apartments or big homes to save money.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2015 09:12PM by midwestanon.

I have a friend who has sister missionaries living in her home for free.

What if, and I am just playing devil's advocate for a minute, the church isn't short of cash at all. But somehow the bean counters at the COB have gradually leveraged actual control of the organization from the old boys and are now directing the entire operation. It is a ponzi scheme with a real estate empire in which to stash their billions.

The bean counters have run scenarios to squeeze every last drop out of members and to run operations on a shoe string. People on this site who still attend on Sundays often say that most of what is preached is browbeating existing members to find new contacts for the sales force aka missionaries. Bean counters are excellent at squeezing out all the pennies from operations knowing that all those pennies add up to lots of lovely moolah.

Hard to say what is keeping the old boys passive. Maybe the bean counters also are experts at finding each old boy's weak point and exploiting it. And you don't rise to the highest level without getting very good at lying so perhaps personal integrity has been weeded out at the lower ranks. Perhaps the top 15 have been personally selected from the seventy by the bean counters. The seventy aren't in on the scheme but know if they want to rise farther, what they will have to do. Anyone who shows any signs of being too principled or who doesn't have a weakness that can be used, never makes it out of the seventy.

Maybe with one old boy it is greed, millions for his family, maybe it is having caught, and having photos of, an old boy with a deacon, maybe with another it is getting his son into the seventy.

Each one gets trotted out as needed and handed a prepared speech.
It is made very clear that any disobedience will be met with complete disgrace to them and their family.

Maybe it is a far fetched scenario but it does give an alternate explanation of why the cult is so desperate to recruit new members.

A cousin of mine finally booted the mishies who had been living in his basement because he was fed up with having to dunn the MP each and every month for the handsome sum of $75 (not each, that's for the pair.)

Plus, teen-agers are such ill-mannered slobs and he'd already raised his quota of 7.

Don't know how he stood it as long as he did.