How is this possible? I am so pissed off at the things i remember as a child and a teenager it is not even funny. There is insane anger that i really dont know what to do about. I beat the sh#t out of my pillow imagining that it was mormon god or an apostle or my father or mormon jesus but i still have a sh#tload of anger still within, it is nuts i feel like i have more anger than everyone else because how can i still be angry after a year of leaving. I just need a yelling partner that will allow me to go full force anger on them. Not sure if my counselor would let me reach full anger. I dont know anymore, all taunters can go to hell. I dont know if you live in a mansion and have zero problems that you can taunt people online everyday but f#ck off we want you enslaved in the morg for eternity.

Well, you can always yell and cuss at me...I'll still think you're awesome! Oh, and I never used to be a hugger either, Badass, until I had kids. I used to hate it when anyone would even touch me--handshakes were gross. All that changed when I experienced the pure love of a child. I hope that if you want to be a Dad, someday you'll have a chance. It's hard, but my children are the most beautiful part of my life.

I never used to cry, either, Badass, until that phone call that told me my father had died suddenly. We never understood each other until the last few years of his life when he was racked with disease. I cry a lot now, Adam. I can tear up when I read about your hurt (yeah, I really do).

So, Badass, keep venting here. Eventually, I think you'll find that after the anger is released, it goes away.

I think I'm pretty much recovered from Mormonism (as least the really hard grief). The only way it gets to me is through family. For good or for bad, I've adopted a Zen attitude where once I feel my blood starting to boil, I step outside my mind and say, "I'm not going to let the fuckers zap any of my energy or make me mad. I'm just not going to give them control. If I lose control, I lose--they win."

A well-meaning wanker TBM bore his testimony at me today. I stepped outside my mind and say him as he really was--a regular dude just trying to convince HIMSELF of the truth of the church. I looked at him and just smiled and said, "thanks for sharing that. Now, just be the best Latter-day Saint you can and love others unconditionally." He didn't have a response.

Anyhow, Badass, I really enjoy talking with you. Vent away. As I mentioned earlier, I've got a crazy work schedule, but will reply as much as I can. I think my fellow RfMers, also think the world of you and are good at cheering you on.

Here's to you, Badass Adam! Very best wishes for healing, pain relieve, anger release, earthiness, and most of all, a sense of peace and happiness for you. You rock!

Boner nobody really likes me in this world except you guys haha and a few card players i met who were pretty cool. I have been so brain dead for so long and around robots that i couldnt speak my mind for a very long time. I thought i was going to get the curse of god on me if i questioned authority and said they were full of sh#t. So i kept my mouth shut around everybody just walking on f#cking eggshells. My life was horrible for decades atleast and i thought everybody had my upbringing and suffered like i did but that was not true. I had the sh#tty hand without even knowing it. I vent random thoughts and questions on here because i think it is important to get it out of my head. If i wasnt in pain i would probably never get on here to be honest. But i realize i really do, like many others have no other support system. Nobody has the experience like you guys do to be successful in this very hard goal of being free again mentally and be authentic again with a real personality. I want my true personality to come through in this life. I think i was legitamitely happy when i was a young kid so it has happened before.

Adam, I’m sending you some unconditional love. That’s right, you didn’t earn it, ask for it, or may not even want it—but it yours from an old wanker who was once a very judgmental, serious, hurt kid.

I started to change in my 30s. You’re in your 30s, right? Here’s a not-so-secret secret, you get to determine the rest your of your life according to your rules. You’ll make mistakes (we all do) but they’ll be your successes and your mistakes.

Forgive yourself, Badass, for any mistakes. I’m serious. Get the toilet paper out, write your perceived flaws and mistakes on a sheet, tear it up, throw them in the toilet, and take a long enjoyable piss. Then flush. Let yourself off the hook, Adam. I mean it, get out the mirror, Badass, see yourself for the wonderful wanker you are!

Once you’ve let go of your own personal shit, you’ll give off positive vibes, and you’ll find friends whom you enjoy. And guess what, they’ll be imperfect, too! But, you will have real friends who will make your life fun.

Here’s hoping you have an utterly fantastically enjoyable day tomorrow!

Excellent advice, Boner! I'd say "fascinating", but I know you are speaking the truth. ;-)

I think that one of the reasons my wife stays tied to the church is guilt...good ol', church-inspired guilt. She agonizes over every little thing she does that does not comport with what it means to be Mormon.

There are times when she gets angry with me because I don't seem to be suffering from guilt, though I am clearly not Mormon in thought or action.

As I've explained to her many times, it's not that I don't feel guilt, shame, or regret over anything that I've done; I just don't dwell on them and allow them to define me.

I've made mistakes and done things that I'm ashamed of, but I own them and resolve to do better in the future...the only thing I can do about the past is to learn from it.

I hear you, Greg. The church instills shame. Shaming is just making a person feel uneasiness or unworthy as a means of controlling that person. Fuck that!

I’m with you on the mistakes. I make them and apologize, or make amends, if necessary. And then let them go. Hey, I’m human abd I make mistakes—big fucking deal! My successes outnumber my mistakes. I think it drives my wife crazy that God hasn’t punished me.

I dont know why i havent gotten struck down by lightning i exposed all the temple stuff many of times. What the hell i might actually be improving, very strange boner very strange indeed. What else can i get away with saying?

badassadam Wrote:
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> What else can i get away with saying?

How about looking at yourself and saying something to this effect...I’m Badass Adam, a man of quality. I’m in recovery. I’m taking control over my life and defining how I’ll live. I’ve made some mistakes, but those are yesterday’s news. Im not going to let a cult play mind games with me. I’m The Badass, and I like myself...

Then just believe it, Adam. I sure do!

Alright i think i can do this. I am the badass and i don't give two shits what anybody thinks of me. I will break the mental chains of the cult.

On this board you are allowed to write 'shit' and 'fuck' and other words to express your anger without disguising it with #. No inhibitions here as long as you don't dis other individuals on the board. If we knew each other and lived close I'd invite you to join me at a secluded location to have a yelling fest. I'd enjoy a good cathartic cussing session about TSCC. And it would be even better with The Boner, cuss-master of the universe.

I would love to yell in boners face and pretend it was holland haha. No offence boner.

Badass, you couldn’t be as ugly as Holland :)

Well duh, i think everybody is better looking than that guy.

Included my nut sack—it has less wrinkles.

Hahaha i almost said even my boner is better looking but that would be too obvious.

It's okay to feel angry. Finding healthy ways of expressing it are helpful if you don't wish to go through life an angry person lashing out at whoever's closest to you.

Don't become a menace to yourself or society. If your therapist sees you going off the deep end she may have you committed so you don't harm yourself or others.

Writing about it helps channel some of that anger and may help someone else dealing with something similar as you are.

The pen is the mightiest weapon in speaking out against injustice, and to get back at the cult for what you believe it stole from you.

Then look to the future more, and try not to dwell on the past you had no control over. Letting go is part of moving on.

I really really don't want to go through life like this anymore. I don't want to be pissed and chomp peoples heads off with my words you know? I think my pain is a part of the issue i cant really contain it totally yet.

I get not wanting to be a certain way, and needing/wanting to change something that is holding you back.

You can do it, you just need to be gentle with yourself and more forgiving of others. That doesn't mean giving a pass to someone where it isn't due.

It does mean focus on the things you can change. And don't worry about the things you cannot. Like the serenity prayer in Alcoholics Anonymous that goes: Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. The courage to change the things I can. And the wisdom to know the difference.

You may even want to check out an Al-Anon meeting in your area. They're free to attend and open to the public. You may benefit from its program. The best part is you get to be anonymous. It's a support group that is international - there are chapters all over the country including where you are. There are programs for alchoholics, and there are programs for adult children of alcoholics. You don't need to disclose you're recovering from Mormonism. But in some ways it is like being in a home of alcoholics. I know because my parents were both. :)

Gotcha well i felt like i was in a home of angry alcoholics so you may be right about that. I have gone to some meetings before but it was ran by the church so it did not help at all.

badassadam Wrote:
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> I really really don't want to go through life like
> this anymore. I don't want to be pissed and chomp
> peoples heads off with my words you know? I think
> my pain is a part of the issue i cant really
> contain it totally yet.


Yes, I do know. Having not been allowed to express anger for most of my life, it was a horrible thing to *actually* feel, and chomping peoples' heads off at the drop of a hat - it was like an ugly part of me that I never knew existed popped up like a different personality. It made me feel out of control and crazy - where the hell was it coming from!?

Somebody would say something stupid to me like, "forgiveness heals," and wham, like flipping a switch inside, I would say something like, "That's full of crap!" (I didn't even know how to cuss back then, but inside it felt like me shouting "You're full of bullshit you dirty, lying, lowborn stupid SOB!") I didn't know why such an old-timey gentle phrase like "forgiveness heals" could flip my switch, especially at someone who would now be staring at me, deer in the headlights, wondering why this hungry wolf was eyeballing them...? Inside, it felt like I "needed" to turn them into roadkill with my words.

Really, wtf was going on with me?! One of the worst parts was I felt I had no control of it, it just flung out my mouth, my eyes hot, yeah, I'll go a couple of rounds if you want.

Yeah, it made me feel totally nuts. And I now know I gave off that vibe.

But, what I finally figured out was that yes, it was real anger, but it wasn't really "mine." It was a part of the steaming garbage heap, the mess that my abusers had left behind. Just like I had wounds and scars on my body that had not healed right (I had to have surgeries, too), I had wounds and scars on my personality that also needed time to heal.

I was not accepting "forgiveness heals" as a gentle suggestion, but felt I was (again) being "commanded" to "feel" or react in a certain way. The way I had been commanded all of my life, the way they used to keep me quiet about the abuse. It didn't really matter what someone now "suggested," it felt like a "command."

And it really, really pissed me off that this person who said it had no clue what crimes had been done to me, that the criminals were never brought to justice, and that my physical scars and wounds meant so much (new) physical pain, not to mention things like the emotional pain that for the rest of my life, I would never be able to have my own biological family - no kids or grandkids for me.

And I was "supposed" to "forgive!?" People who never evenasked "forgiveness??!!" I'd rather go to hell myself!

The "fuck that fucking shit!" rage feeling was on a hair-trigger back then. There was no "stopping" it. It had been wrongfully "stopped" all of my life. It had to come out, had to be vented.

And, you're correct in questioning if it's appropriate to go full-out raging bull with your counselor. I can't speak for her of course, but one-on-one, in a closed-door session, it really could terrify her. Who knows if she could or would be prepared for the sort of rage we are talking about.

One of the best places for me was group therapy, a bunch of people at different stages of healing, who had been abused in similar ways. The group setting also gave everyone a feeling of physical security, and they understood the rage as a vent, not meant as an "attack" or potential attack. Cognitive behavioral therapy was no good for me, wayeeee not ready for it, because it felt like another way to quash the anger, not vent it. It can be very helpful later on, though.

Ask your counselor about group therapy for abuse survivors. At first, you may not want to open up with a bunch of strangers, but that's normal, and part of healing. Even if you say nothing the first two or three times, keep going until you feel safe enough to start sharing your story. Then keep going back until you feel safe enough to start sharing your anger. Group therapy will help you vent, and, help you learn appropriate ways to express your anger in other settings.

My anger can still be triggered, and I think it appropriate. Anger is a human emotion that we have for a reason. It's like a dog growls to warn others that they are crossing a boundary, we use our words to do the same. Unlike a dog, we usually don't have to bare our teeth and growl, but if you think of an abused dog, feeling cornered, you know that you may get mauled, and back away slowly. That was me, in the beginning. I had to learn that not everyone who was trying to "pet" me was trying to hurt me (even if they didn't know my still-"sore" spots), how to tell others (in appropriate ways) that they were crossing a line, and how to appropriately defend that line when called for. Most (99.95%) of the time, no growling or teeth.

You are healing. You ARE healing. It's just still very much hurting, too. You can do this. :)

Stay safe, dear badass.

Thanks survivalist you do understand. Anytime somebody gives me advice and it feels like they are talking out of their ass i just want to say "you are so full of shit" especially if its a mormon just quoting things, i hate that shit. They can take all those quotes and shove them up their ass.

I think there is a "cure moment," badass, and I think you're in it. It's just not what you expected - not like taking the sutures out, and saying, "Glad that's over with."

But, remember for a moment how lost and raw and vulnerable you felt when you first started posting here. Do you realize how much stronger you are now? Damn, I do! Your brain is airing out - like you're lancing old wounds to let the infection drain. Getting rid of that old junk is also making room for new ways of thinking, new ways of being, new freedoms.

For me, there was no one single moment or step that I can call my "cure moment." There's been a lot of moments, steps, work, a lot of venting, crying, laughs, and many, many good people who encouraged me, helped me to find ways to think, ways to offload the pain and anger, and I can honestly look back and see how much I've grown and healed. I still have bad days, I think everyone does, and some are worse than others. What I have much, much more of than I did in the beginning is hope.

If I had to "measure" my healing, I think that "hope" is the yardstick I would use. I used to feel hopeless all the time. If I had to hazard a guess, I would guess that you felt pretty hopeless when you were trapped in it.

I have hope for my future, and I often can see the hope you have for yours. Those are your healing moments, badass. They stack up in time, and eventually, you have more hope than you have pain. When you have a little moment of hope, it's like another one of the hundreds of sutures have been removed. Yes, there are more sutures, and you're working on them. It's okay.

The anger you want and need to vent, those hard moments are healing moments, too.

There's a poem that one of the good people here shared, and I'd like to share it with you.

----------

The Guest House

This being human is a guest house.
Every morning a new arrival.

A joy, a depression, a meanness,
some momentary awareness comes
As an unexpected visitor.

Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they're a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture,
still treat each guest honorably.
He may be clearing you out
for some new delight.

The dark thought, the shame, the malice,
meet them at the door laughing,
and invite them in.

Be grateful for whoever comes,
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.

-Jellaludin Rumi,
translation by Coleman Barks

---------


Uh, yeah, thank you, but this pain is a bit much to want to welcome it again, tomorrow. And, I don't much trust anything that is said to be from "the beyond." None of that was the point, though. For me, it was about *the healing* that was a hopeful, even joyful, consequence of going through the pain.

(I just thought of "the beyond" as "beyond this moment," because thinking that way helped me to make sense of what it was trying to say.)

I think you're one of the bravest people I've e-known. You put it out there, Adam, and your honesty - let me put it this way. I USED to be pretty damn proud of my honesty, 'til I met you. You are amazing, and whether you know it or not, you set a damn high bar for authenticity. You give so freely, so fairly, you sometimes put me to shame.

Let the anger happen (safely), and know that you are in your healing moment. :)


And, when you need a distraction, do you like movies? Sometimes, all I'm up for is vegging on a show or something, and I'm going to confess here. I was never allowed to watch cartoons very much when growing up, so a dear person helped me learn to enjoy them. Sort of like being the kid I was never allowed to be. There's one, called Turbo Snail, and the way Turbo never gives up, well, he reminds me of you. :)

I used to love the cartoon dragonball z, i loved the character vegeta because he never gave up either. I feel like if i am not honest and vent out my mind then i will never get better, i will never come alive. My mind and my voice do not match in the real world. I do not feel totally authentic yet, a kid i play cards with is super authentic and he doesnt even know it and i look up to that kid even though he is younger than me. I thought to myself, 'have i ever been that authentic and i am not really sure i have. Authenticity is happiness it really is i finally figured out what happiness is i think. Feeling like a real human being not feeling controlled by anybody. And survivalist i am nothing special, the special mentallity is for the mormons and i see it as a weakness. We are the survivors of the worst scenarios of life that is what we are.

Mormons seem to think anger is a sin unless it's directed toward whoever they deem as "anti."

Actually, they are the antis, anti gentile, anti non-church attenders, anti coffee drinkers and the list goes on.

They definitely think its a sin, especially if its directed toward them. I almost feel like its against the law to show anger because of that church.

but I chuckled when you said you've been out a year. It was a "dark humor" laugh.

I quit attending when my kids were about 8 years old (twins). They will turn 32 in November. I still have a lot of anger. It just depends on the day. Why do you think I still go to my exmo therapist after all these years. I hadn't been going as much for a few years, but this year has been a tough one. I'm seeing him today (actually forgot about the appt and decided to go anyway).

My boyfriend and I were in Ogden yesterday and went to a coffee shop. He just asked his phone to find one and we went to this one. It was interesting. There were signs pointing to parking lots for some church. I can't think of it right now. Signs everywhere. The coffee shop was nice, but most people seemed to know each other. (What I found interesting was there were a lot of deaf people there--my mother's parents were both deaf, so this was really neat for me as I was around my mother and grandmother signing until I was in my 20s).

So when I got home, I looked up this church and just reading about it made me SICK. Reading about any religion. I used to drive down the street in Longmont, Colorado (where I lived with my boyfriend for a bit) and see signs telling what time church started and I'd think "Why would anyone go to church?"

There are little triggers daily for me and big triggers other days. I found out 3 years ago that my best friend in elementary school had committed suicide. Her parents weren't active mormon, but she went and she became "wild" in middle school and high school and I was the good little mormon. I found out in a really strange way about her dying and I have been able to go see her mother (who lives in SLC instead of Brigham now). That set me off on another set of triggers--my childhood in mormonism.

I'm 60.

When my husband left me, I was told it would take "so many" years to heal depending on how many years I was married. It was almost like clockwork--8 years after he left, I was walking at the track when I realized I was happy he left me as I had a second chance.

HEALING takes TIME. Maybe, just maybe--this helped me a lot. I had so many other things to take care of after he left, that I didn't worry about my beliefs. I always thought I'd go back. Sometimes I would go once and sit on the sofa in the foyer and listen and hurry out before anyone saw me. But after I started to heal from the hell that was my life after he left, then I started to think about my beliefs and the distance I had from the indoctrination for SO MANY YEARS helped me because I really just didn't think about it. I didn't have time. I didn't have energy.

But I KNOW this will be something I deal with the rest of my life. It just is. I'll ask my therapist today if he is completely over it or if he feels he'll always deal with it in some way. He left when he was about 23 and he is 58 I believe.

God d@mn i was hoping i would hit a point where i would be a normal human being as if none of it had ever happened. Like there would be this cure moment or something.

I'll ask my therapist today.

I was thinking as I was working--I think it does help you to be able to talk to people on this board because of all the things you are going through, but would you be able to force yourself to NOT THINK about the church other times?

When I found out my boyfriend/eventual husband was gay, I thought I had to know everything about what he had done and about gay sex. Hell, I didn't even know what gay sex was, etc. Barely knew who gays were. And I'd ask him. I'm too curious. It was killing me to think about all this stuff especially in the circumstances I was in with the leaders, etc., and so I started to force myself to not think about those things. I still don't think about them. I have this area of my brain that I don't allow myself to go to. Otherwise, I never could have married him. It was probably good for him that I married him at that time, so most days I'm okay with it, but there are things that pop into my mind and I force myself to not think about them.

I think sometimes NOT having to think about them gives our brains a rest. I think not having to think about if I still believed in mormonism for years really helped me move along in the healing.

I'm sure mormonism will ALWAYS EFFECT my life especially as long as my daughter decides to be one and I've come to accept that.

My brain has definitely needed a rest from what i have gone through. The mind knows when its being over abused i think. My mind still can't grasp the concept of 'not feeling forced into doing something it doesn't want to do' every seven days. Its like 'am i really free?''are you sure?'. I have been controlled and manipulated my whole life my mind is not used to not being a pawn in their play.

This community has made all the difference for me. I can't even remember how long I've been in this group - more than a decade, for sure.

I don't really even have church-related issues any more, I don't think. I'm here because I love the community, and the support we provide for each other.

You found the right place, Adam. We're here for you, and for each other.

That would be so nice to not have church-related issues going on in the mind.