Lately I have seen a bit of crossfire between some foaming-at-the-mouth atheists and other posters.

I laugh at humans that claim that they know how everything works from their limited perspective of what they have proven not to work. It’s like falling out with Mormonism and reading a book and a couple of websites makes them KNOW everything about the universe, prove every theory and no different than a Mormon in their ability to take one feeling of certainly and close the possibility that any other thing exists.

We don’t know. We just don’t. Unless you have amazing eyes and can see to the depths of time and space, then give it a rest with your certainly that Jesus did not live or that god does not exists.

We have science to tell us we have been wrong, but mostly that we don’t know and we are just getting glimpses about ho how much we don’t know.
I have a sister in law that left the church last year. She spends 4-8 hours a day on Facebook copy/pasting every atheist article she can find, and hoping for a fight.
As if from being a totally ignorant Mormon, who was convinced she was right, and now 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001seconds later (in the life of this planet), she knows everything, again, but as an atheist.

I’d believe you if you told me you were agnostic, because we ALL really are. But to attack people for their beliefs with yours is silly and small minded.

going from the metal errors in mormonism to a more angry set of mental errors does not make you right.

Sorry that you got burned by Mormonism. That does not make all religious beliefs wrong or useless, or more importantly any of your business.

Live and let live.

Exactly and just because some religions have beliefs that are easy to disprove does not mean that is true of all of them or that there is no god.

Stop trolling.

magic823 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stop trolling.


Why would you say that? I think the post is very on topic because there have been a lot of postings about this lately.

Then say it is the atheists that are foaming at the mouth is trolling.

The only thing I, as an atheist, am certain about is that not one single theist in history has met their burden of proof in their claim that a god exists.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what certainty you're speaking of.

If you're trying to construct a straw argument that atheism is the certainty that there are no gods, then god help you...

Why do theists have to prove their beliefs to you? It might be appropriate if they are arguing a point of view or if they want to engage in the discussion , but most of the theists here are fairly quiet. Simply stating that they are Baptist or Catholic does not mean they have to prove anything to you any more than you have to prove anything to them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2015 06:38PM by bona dea.

If they want to claim that god exists, it is up to them to prove it.

what you are witnessing is people respondingvto a bit of atheist baiting by a certain person.
And atheist do not claim to know for certain but are to this date exceptionaly underwhelmed by any, and I mean any, claims to the existance of god put forward by any theist.
Mormonism is great though because it is a perfect study in how people can be duped by charlatans into false beliefs. For me it is the cherry on top of the icing on the cake.

We are NOT all agnostics. Please don't generalize a label as that leads to erasure and misunderstanding of that label.
I identify as an atheist agnostic. The two are not mutually exclusive.

You're sweating anti-science drops of blood, just like your make-believe Jesus, and claiming it's tears of laughter.

Welcome to the rumble.

Now, follow your own hypocritical advice and learn to "live and let live" with atheists who dare disagree with your personal uncertainties about religious belief.

If you can't handle the heat, stay up there on your cross.

Geezus. :)



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2015 06:42PM by steve benson.

Yeah bona, stop trolling!

!

You know I'm kidding of course.

A bit of lame-ass levity never scared you.

I'll shut up ok.

But no, I still gotta say, I find it revealing how tenaciously some here cling to their recently-acquired testimonies as doggely as they did to their formerly held to falacies.

I think there is a god and admit I could be wrong. I just think it would be nice if a a certain group of atheist posters could be less dogmatic and stop acting like they have the one true world view. I did know you were kidding



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2015 06:39PM by bona dea.

Are you suggesting that atheists lie about their world view? Are you suggesting that atheists should not call them as they see them?

That would be a little skewed in your favor just he way you like it, wouldn't it?

Where the heck did I say that?I am saying atheists as well as everyone else should try some tolerance and stop proselytizing. Easy concept.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2015 06:08PM by bona dea.

Read your words again, " . . .I just think it would be nice if a a certain group of atheist posters could be less dogmatic and stop acting like they have the one true world view."

That is basically asking them to keep their views to themselves.

I see most of the atheists on this board doing two things:

Speaking for themselves, not for the world, and

Challenging the theists to show evidence--which is reasonable,

and then perhaps a third--examining the supposed evidence with a slight bit of glee.

No, it is asking them to stop proselytizing and being jerks about it.Same for believers.You can discuss view without proselytizing. And what on earth does that have to do with lying? Why do theists have to provide evidence if they made no claims to begin with? Around here the atheists are usually the ones claiming there is no God.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2015 06:24PM by bona dea.

You are making 2 assumptions,
1) The beliefs Or lack of theistic beliefs are recently held.
2) Any previous testimonies either existed or were genuinely believed.

I've been saying the very same thing sb and it falls in deaf ears...

I myself, choose to believe in nothing and I am also open.

Ain't the first time I've made rash assumptions.

Best I can say is that I can at least admit to it.

When a person such as your SIL goes from rabidly certain TBM to rabidly certain athiest in a gazillionth of a second....it says more about them as a person that it does of the certainty of their religion or atheism.

Live and let live? You should try it sometime.

I'd like to say I'm only atheist by default. Even agnosticism seems a little sketchy to me. Like maybe a god is so hidden that it can't be found? That's sorta like not existing to me. Just my way of thinking. You don't have to try it at home.

sb, I'm super interested in the conversation being pursued by you, Tal, Korwhore, Tall Man, etc.

However, for it to make sense to me, I'd like some specifics rather than generalizations about attacking beliefs.

For example, you say that attacking people for their beliefs is "is silly and small minded." I have a few questions.

Can you provide an example of a belief that has been attacked? I'm sure there are many examples, but for me, if you can provide one, it would be a good start for a discussion.

Do you think people should discuss bad ideas? Like mormonism? Do you think there is a value in exposing the fraud of mormonism? Does that extend to other religions (and other ideas)?

Anyways, what is a belief that has been attacked that should be left alone? If you feel like answering my question, I may have a few more.

This dynamic seems exacerbated by many theists seeing their religious beliefs as part of their identity. So, when someone with a foundational character trait of "Mormon" hears an atheist say "There's no convincing evidence that your God exists", they see it as a personal attack.

It's wasn't a personal attack. It was an observation.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2015 06:41PM by Xyandro.

It becomes an attack of sorts if you start preaching or start characterizing beliefs as stupid or the believer as stupid. There is an extremely thin line here. Discussing beliefs with willing people is fine. Forcing your opinions on others,especially in a superior and condescending way was is not.

That's the whole point, though... You can't discuss non-belief in God without offending some people that have a religious component to their identity. The discussion itself is a personal attack.

+1 And this entire thread illustrates that point.

Some atheists including one on this thread get really huffy if their beliefs are challenged. There are intolerant people on both sides.

Sometimes that is true,but then why do you feel the need to force a discussion on them? If you are having a discussion with someone else and not characterizing believers as idiots and they jump in because they are offended by your views, it is their problem. If you forced a discussion on them demanding proof, then it is your problem.

If we never have discussions on anything that might make people uncomfortable, how will we ever learn?

If I don't believe in beliefs, am I an aist? I believe so.

Four quick points.

First, it does not seem to be the case that atheists are less prone to believing in nonsense overall than theists. Cockamamie ideas - about politics, relationships, history, health, everything - seem to be about evenly spread throughout the human family, no matter how we divide that family up into categories. A belief in no god, or a thousand, provides no immunity to different forms of nonsense. This is not to defend theism. It is to (I think) only speak a bleak truth about our species.

Second, the question of whether evidence supports theism is often mixed up with the question of whether theism can be a social good. This is a mistake. It could be true that *every* form of theism is unsupported, or even contradicted by, evidence; but from this, it does *not* follow that every form of theism per se is without value, or bad.

The non sequitur that if theism is false, it must be bad for individuals or societies, presupposes synonymity between "true" and "good" (and "false" and "bad"). From an evolutionary or Darwinian perspective, this presupposition is without foundation.

Darwin even goes so far as to write (in "The Descent of Man") that it seems likely that belief in certain transcendental claims, themselves unsupported by any evidence, endowed certain human groups with superior survival ability.

Third, it is only an outrageous case of confirmation bias which could lead someone to attribute to theism crimes committed in the name of Catholicism, but to refuse to attribute to theism crimes committed in the name of communism. And the rationalizations for this outrageous example of confirmation bias, as I'll show in a forthcoming reply to Richard Packham, are literally as absurd as anything we could hear in the Mormon church next Sunday.

Lastly, pointing out the utter absurdity of some particular defense of atheism is not a roundabout defense of theism. If logic and facts actually do matter to those wishing to think of themselves as bona fide atheists and critical thinkers, they should welcome such critiques.

Just my two cents.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2015 06:26PM by Tal Bachman.

Can you offer a critique of atheism?

Not of atheists. But of atheism?

I would read it with interest. Contrary to some posters, I've enjoyed the posts regarding atheists and atheism. I think any thought should be subjected to any available criticism, reasonable or otherwise. Who knows what may come out of it all for someone reading here. Maybe something more than just irritation, maybe not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2015 06:32PM by thingsithink.

Why I can attribute to theism crimes committed in the name of Catholicism, but to refuse to attribute to [a]theism crimes committed in the name of communism:

(I'm assuming you meant atheism the second time)

Catholics have leaders. Their leaders have said awful things that Catholics have followed, sometimes blindly, and horrible consequences have resulted.

Atheists DON'T have leaders. They do what they do for their own reasons. Most atheists wouldn't identify as communist. Communism is NOT a logical result of atheism.

A lot of threads started by foaming-at-the-mout new dogmaticists attacking atheism and atheist and atheist responding with reason and rationality.

To bad the dogmaticists have to use such rude name calling tactics now days.
I guess it is time to return kind for kind.