Nor is it an ideology or a belief system. In fact, atheists are not even recognized as a legitimate minority and it is perfectly acceptable to use hate speech against us -- such as we will burn in Hell. In several US states, atheists cannot hold public office.

And yet religious types are always whining about how we're "out to get them".

Why is this?

Thank you. That drives me nuts too.

I saw a comment on YouTube the other day, where some guy said, "If one more person calls Atheism a religion, I'm going to kick them in the teeth."

He reflects the frustration of dealing with people who just don't get it.

Fear is a powerful emotion. Most of advertising and politics are driven by fear. Doubt is dealt with in different ways by different people. Rational, thinking people examine and scrutinse their own actions. Or, as the character Droxine in ST:TOS "The Cloud Minders" asked, "Are we so sure of ourselves that we do not question what we do?"

Dogmatic people do not do this. Doubt is diverted with fear. The "Other" is trying to destroy you. The "Other" is trying to temp you. The presence and existence of the "Other" makes you uncomfortable.

I think I found the word that descibes my position better, apatheism
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism

I don't keep my self up at night wondering about the existence of alien life forms either.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2015 10:24AM by ladell.

ladell,

i can now label myself an apatheist as well.

thanks!

It is oft stated here that atheism is a "lack of belief."

It is also a lack of tacking your own agenda onto everything.

I see a flower when I see a flower and not a creation of God. I am certain that if Mormon God made flowers they would be all be poisonous.

I see a sunset as something the sky does under certain conditions. I can have my breath taken away without giving credit to a mysterious spirit I have never seen.

I can see a baby and be annoyed that it's banging a toy hammer on the table next to me in a restaurant.

I can look at the unending vastness of the universe and be so excited by what we probably know now, but even more about what we may discover. I don't need to think that some god is out there making mud balls into planets to feel awe. The natural way the cosmos operates is just fine by me.

But most of all atheism is NOT about deciding who is going to get the big prize at the end of life, who is god's special pet and will be crowned superior, already judging each other and sizing each other up against man-made rules that bind and restrict growth and love.

This viewpoint makes me feel reverence for what we have, what we are--now. The real miracle is just getting to live everyday with possibility.

That passage above spoke to me more, and was more inspirational than probably any religious text I have ever read.

Thank you Ladell.

blueorchid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But most of all atheism is NOT about deciding who is going to get the big prize at the end of life, who is god's special pet and will be crowned superior, already judging each other and sizing each other up against man-made rules that bind and
restrict growth and love.

I don't think it's fair to paint all deists/theists with an "I win, you lose" mentality. I grew beyond that, and I don't think it's terribly unusual to grow beyond that.

Apatheism...my state for a number of years after I left Mormondom. No longer am I in that state today. I believe that God does indeed exist for me. Now don't flame me for this is my journey and I respect the journeys we all take to give ourselves peace in this life.

michaelc1945 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Apatheism...my state for a number of years after I
> left Mormondom. No longer am I in that state
> today. I believe that God does indeed exist for
> me. Now don't flame me for this is my journey and
> I respect the journeys we all take to give
> ourselves peace in this life.

Michael, I never have and probably never will "flame" anyone for having a belief.
My criticism is based on actions that are harmful. If you took your "belief" and used it as the basis to harm others, I would criticize your actions -- and the "belief" it was based on. If you didn't, I wouldn't care one bit what you do or don't believe.

I hope that's clear, and it's the case with the vast majority of atheists.

Keep in mind, though -- just as I have no problem with you stating your belief, and wouldn't flame you for it, I shouldn't be flamed for stating my lack of belief. That's only fair and reasonable, yes? :)

Be assured that I will never flame anyone for their beliefs. We who have been subject to the abuse of Mormonism should be empathetic of others of us struggling with our withdrawal from the cult whatever the direction that takes us.

I don’t know anything about whiny, paranoid “religious types” worrying about atheists that are “out to get them.” From what I see, debates about the word “atheist” and atheism take place among atheists themselves and other types of non-believers on the internet. IRL I don’t see any of it. (Funny thing for example, no one I know IRL, from professionals down to truck drivers, know who Sam Harris is.)

And it’s pretty clear that the 1961 SCOTUS ruling on “religious tests” takes care of those seven, southern states (granting Maryland is Southern). I guess per the American Way, someone or some group will have to make those states abide by the constitution, its amendments and the 1961 SCOTUS ruling.

Finally, if atheism is and only is “a lack of belief” then how is it even possible to list atheists as a “legitimate minority” protected by hate speech laws? Are non-stamp collectors, to use the commonly used example, to be protected also?


But to your main claim that “Atheism is not a movement”: that’s disingenuous. Of course a movement can be built from atheism, and has been. An example:

http://atheists.org

What is their aim?

“Atheism may be defined as the mental attitude which unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds.”

That’s a movement built upon atheism that strives to establish a “life-style and ethical outlook.”

Now, does this movement include all atheists? No, of course not, just as SCLC obviously didn’t include all christians or zionism include all jews, etc. But it is a movement created by atheists built upon their atheism.

Human

(If Tal Bachman is reading, kindly re-post your deleted OP on the different kinds of atheism. Pity it was deleted.)

Human Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But to your main claim that “Atheism is not a
> movement”: that’s disingenuous. Of course a
> movement can be built from atheism, and has been.
> An example:
>
> http://atheists.org


Movements can be built on darn near anything. That makes the movement built on something a movement, not the things they're built on.

The members of atheists.org are a "movement." That no more makes atheism itself a movement than the fact that there are movements based on "white skin" makes having white skin a movement.

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The members of atheists.org are a "movement."
> That no more makes atheism itself a movement than
> the fact that there are movements based on "white
> skin" makes having white skin a movement.

And with my examples of SCLC and Zionism I said the same thing.

Fine, there are atheist movements just as there are christian, jewish and muslim movements; but Atheism, Christianity, Judism and Islam are not movements in themselves. Okay.

But now we're just playing with words with no real point.

Human Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But now we're just playing with words with no real
> point.

Personally, I think clear communication and understanding of words and statements isn't pointless at all. I consider it very important, in fact.

"Atheism is a movement" is not correct. Knowing that, why would someone say it? "There are atheist movements" is correct. Those two statements are not the same, and the distinction matters.

It matters just as much as my example: having white skin is not a "movement." Using that false idea to claim all people with white skin are racists, etc. is false. There are movements based on having white skin -- the members of those movements do not represent all people with white skin, their existence doesn't mean having white skin is a movement, etc. The distinction matters.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2015 12:59PM by ificouldhietokolob.

The simple fact is this: there is no capital A Atheism, there are only atheists.

But that doesn't stop all kinds of atheists using capital A Atheism. Some even buy capital A pins from Dawkins to proudly belong to something that is really nothing more than a negation. It's weird.

Human Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The simple fact is this: there is no capital A
> Atheism, there are only atheists.
>
> But that doesn't stop all kinds of atheists using
> capital A Atheism. Some even buy capital A pins
> from Dawkins to proudly belong to something that
> is really nothing more than a negation. It's
> weird.

I agree it's weird. Perhaps they feel like they need to "belong" to something, even a "negation." Perhaps they enjoy advertising that they're not part of the majority. I can think of lots of other reasons, and certainly there are those I can't think of. Their reasons are THEIR reasons, and that's just fine with me, as long as they don't harm others over them. Doing those things, though, isn't required in "atheism," and it does get me frustrated when such people are used to claim 'atheism is a religion' or similar things. :)

anon2U Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nor is it an ideology or a belief system. In fact,
> atheists are not even recognized as a legitimate
> minority and it is perfectly acceptable to use
> hate speech against us -- such as we will burn in
> Hell. In several US states, atheists cannot hold
> public office.
>
> And yet religious types are always whining about
> how we're "out to get them".
>
> Why is this?

I have no idea why but I'm out of patience with them. They need

another hobby besides trying to make atheists look bad.... it

only serves to make them look like fifth grade crybabies.

It is still a belief system, though. I think that some call it a religion because some are entrenched in their beliefs and even though the belief is to not believe, that is still a belief if there is no wiggle room for being open minded. This is not a criticism (I seem to have to use this now with any and all posts re this topic due to the sensitive nature of some re this topic).

rgg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is still a belief system, though. I think that
> some call it a religion because some are
> entrenched in their beliefs and even though the
> belief is to not believe, that is still a belief...

No, it's not. Not believing isn't believing, it's the opposite.

Just like (sorry for using cliches, but they're apt) not collecting stamps is not a hobby. Just like not playing soccer isn't a sport.

>...if there is no wiggle room for being open minded.

There is nothing in being an atheist and not believing in claimed god-things that implies "open" or "closed" minded. There's nothing in atheism about a claim of *knowledge* (that's agnosticism).

Most atheists would accept that a "god" of some kind exists if there were verifiable evidence to show one does. Not believing claims that don't have supporting evidence isn't "closed-minded," it's just being reasonable.

Humans make all sorts of claims about "god" things existing. If you believe any of them, you're a theist. If you don't believe any of them, you're an atheist. Yes, it's that simple.
What those who don't believe any of them do beyond that single attribute has all sorts of motivations, reasons, etc. -- but that's all atheism is, not believing "god" claims.

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rgg Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It is still a belief system, though. I think
> that
> > some call it a religion because some are
> > entrenched in their beliefs and even though the
> > belief is to not believe, that is still a
> belief...
>
> No, it's not. Not believing isn't believing, it's
> the opposite.
>
> Just like (sorry for using cliches, but they're
> apt) not collecting stamps is not a hobby. Just
> like not playing soccer isn't a sport.
>
> >...if there is no wiggle room for being open
> minded.
>
> There is nothing in being an atheist and not
> believing in claimed god-things that implies
> "open" or "closed" minded. There's nothing in
> atheism about a claim of *knowledge* (that's
> agnosticism).
>
> Most atheists would accept that a "god" of some
> kind exists if there were verifiable evidence to
> show one does. Not believing claims that don't
> have supporting evidence isn't "closed-minded,"
> it's just being reasonable.
>
> Humans make all sorts of claims about "god" things
> existing. If you believe any of them, you're a
> theist. If you don't believe any of them, you're
> an atheist. Yes, it's that simple.
> What those who don't believe any of them do beyond
> that single attribute has all sorts of
> motivations, reasons, etc. -- but that's all
> atheism is, not believing "god" claims.

Then atheists are open-minded to other POV? That is what I mean by believing...If one is entrenched in their belief of no after life then that IS a belief.

rgg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Then atheists are open-minded to other POV? That
> is what I mean by believing...If one is entrenched
> in their belief of no after life then that IS a
> belief.

Atheists lack belief in claimed god-things. That's ALL you can say about atheists that's accurate. Other than that, they're all individuals with their own ideas, opinions, "beliefs," biases, weaknesses, strengths, etc.

Why are some theists obsessed with defining atheism to suit their own purposes?

If it is a belief system as you have defined it, please list atheist beliefs. And don't say "belief in evolution" because the atheists I know don't "believe" in evolution--they just accept scientific fact as evidence is presented for it. This puts it int he realm of knowledge, not belief. There is all the difference in the world between those two things.

So what is the atheist belief system?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2015 02:44PM by blueorchid.

blueorchid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why are some theists obsessed with defining
> atheism to suit their own purposes?
>
> If it is a belief system as you have defined it,
> please list atheist beliefs. And don't say "belief
> in evolution" because the atheists I know don't
> "believe" in evolution--they just accept
> scientific fact as evidence is presented for it.
> This puts it int he realm of knowledge, not
> belief. There is all the difference in the world
> between those two things.
>
> So what is the atheist belief system?

Thank you for that blueorchid.... I'd love to hear the answers to that.

So what is the atheist belief system?

First, "belief" is a psychological relation that addresses a person's mental state with respect to a given concept or proposition. This means that when we argue about beliefs--as opposed to facts about the world itself--we are in the realm of psychology. With respect to atheism, we are talking about a person's mental attitude or disposition toward a concept; in this case the concept of "God," however that might be defined in a given context.

Thus, to say that atheists merely lack a belief in God, would suggest that they have no mental state or attitude about the concept of God, which, of course, is false. They have a substantive attitude of denial of God. This mental state is just as much a belief (a mental state) as is a belief in God. Again, it is an intentional (in the philosophical sense), psychological state, which is precisely what a belief is by definition. It is a mental state that is directed to some object or concept.

A "belief system" is merely a network of beliefs (mental states) that relate to one another in a logical and coherent manner, and that support what might be called a corresponding worldview.

Since atheism is unquestionably a belief (i.e. an affirmative mental state denying the existence of God), presumably the person having such a belief has other beliefs that cohere with and logically support that belief. Thus, they have an atheist oriented belief system; or at least a belief system that is consistent with their attitude toward "God." Such belief systems vary from one atheist to another, however.

So, what is an atheist belief system in a nutshell? Again, it is a worldview (a set of beliefs) that encompass and are consistent with the belief that "God" has no referent in the real world. (There is no being that meets the necessary and/or sufficient conditions implied by the term "God.")

Now, what is relevant here, is whether there is any commonality between such atheist belief systems such as to support an abstraction and generalization, but in some sense expansive from the isolated atheistic belief that there is no God. Such generalizations are always difficult, and always leave a fringe of non-conforming exceptions. Notwithstanding, I think it is safe to say that in general an atheistic belief system, or worldview, minimally encompasses the following:

(1) That the concept of "God," in any of its faith-based forms, has no referent;
(2) That there is no "supernatural" agency in the universe;
(3) That there is no metaphysical (divine of otherwise) "plan" related to the universe or human existence. (Since there is no planner!)

This might fairly be identified as the backbone of the atheistic belief system, with many other beliefs following more or less close behind. Whether a belief system becomes generalized to instantiate an ideology, with a defined dogma, or becomes institutionalized in a formal movement, is a matter for the social sciences. Clearly, atheism has already become an ideology in America, regardless of individual atheists who react against it. This is the natural result of a system of beliefs that cohere in a way that affects social institutions and public policy.

Finally, we are all psychological beings. Our beliefs are formed by a complex of our life's circumstances, including our learning and our experiences. Atheists who continue to insist that they merely lack a belief in God, without any corresponding substantive belief system, are just kidding themselves. That is just not the way human psychology works.

I think you have just won the twisting of words olympics. Congrats.

In one clear sentence Henry Bemis, what is the atheist belief system? Specifically. Without the word salad.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2015 06:57PM by blueorchid.

blueorchid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think you have just won the twisting of words
> olympics. Congrats.
>
> In one clear sentence Henry Bemis, what is the
> atheist belief system? Specifically. Without the
> word salad.


I think i just fell in love with you Blue Orchid. ;)

Jesus Christ I'm sick of this topic. Why must Theists use the

same mental gymnastics to find a "belief" system for Athiest

that they did to explain mormonism? If you people don't

understand the concept of Athiesm = Lack of belief..... I'm

sorry for you. Go back to you Theism and don't worry about us.

For sure. I have a brick wall that I have neglected for too long. I'm off to bang my head now. Wanna join me saucie?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2015 07:45PM by blueorchid.

"with many other beliefs following more or less close behind."

Isn't it possible that many other beliefs (or ideas) precede atheism and atheism is at the end of the line?

Maybe nothing is built on top of or results from atheism. Perhaps atheism results from the preceding ideas. Like, an idea that asking questions is good. ("what's the reason for thinking Joseph Smith is a prophet?" No good reasons presented and one no longer believes in Smith and Smith's god).

My mental image of "belief system" dose not really have religious connotations, so I actually don't have a problem with most of what you wrote.

Is a PSYCHOPATHEIST a jihadistic crusading theist, or is it a fulminating obsessive atheist? This portmanteau could go either way...

Mormonism is a movement--a bowel movement.

And according to them there is mercy in their bowels. I don't believe them for even a minute.

Isn't it possible to be proud that you DON'T belong to something? That's my position. I'm not one of the faithful. I feel good about that.

Atheism it self is not a movement any more than theism is a religion.

Well put.