There was a talk by Holland to the CES people at the tabernacle a couple days ago. There is a link to it on another thread. I just watched it today and my impression was that it was rather depressing actually if one was a TBM. It seems like you would want to be lifted up and encouraged but it seemed kind of sad to me. What do I know though, TBMs probably thought it was great. Basically he was inferring that CES teachers are stressed about the world we live in today, young people wanting to wait to get married, the CES people's own faith in the church, and the faith of the CES students and ym/yw. A real downer. He said that his talk was written to answer questions and concerns written to him by the CES staff themselves.
Wow, he's basically saying that no historical evidence can count against the "feeling" that it's true. He's poisoning the well not just against any information that has come forth, but against any information that COULD come forth.
Ignore all men behind curtains, because, hey, look at the MAJESTY of the great OZ!
Ya, he sweet talks you up intogold feelings and then slams you with attempted guilt to stir you up in remembrance of your duty.
I would say, Elder Holland, The church has now officially responded to more tHan several of these "second, third, and fourth level pieces," and the evident attempt to trivialize these alarming details screams desperate. That's the best this Church of Jesus Christ of His Latter Day Saints, that claims the only keys to priesthood authority to revelation, can do? 14 year old girls are almost-15-year-olds? Lying is carefully wording a denial that leaves open the possibility of the accusation still being true? God commanded Joseph through an angel with a sword to take plural wives, but didn't specify how exactly the commandment should be obeyed? You admit that the scroll of Horus was not the "vehicle" for the "translation" of the Book of Abraham, though every reference and clue points to the fact that Joseph was pretending to literally translate the scroll, even specifying which characters meant what? And the list goes on and on and on.
Elder Holland, I don't care how many burnings in the bosom I have had, they were artificially induced by manipulation of the evidence. God's truth and his power shouldn't have to fear inquiry, but yours does. It cowers and trembles at the prospect of scrutiny. It begs on its knees that you leave certain details alone and then gas lights you whenever you catch it in a fib.
I'm really, really starting to wonder if Holland thinks that type of behavior is convincing to anyone. He's done it before, and that's obviously his default mode when he panics and doesn't know what else to do.
Obviously it won't convert anyone, and it won't help retain studious members with serious doubts. I do think it might help, briefly, in a couple of ways.
It shows the CES employees that Holland shares their pain, that he's willing to get down there and suffer with them to the bitter end. That type of attitude often helps a losing army retain some of its morale, at least until it's totally destroyed in battle, which could be surprisingly near at this point.
It also shows those poor, suffering parents that Holland tried to do something for their wayward and thoroughly deceived children. At least he tried, he did what they're paying him to do. God will work it all out in the hereafter, but Holland did his part.
All this time since the BoM, and all they get is: It's that way to "build" (really Test) your faith;
Absolutely NO supporting evidence, compared to the break-thrus & discoveries of archeology, back to the time that the Vikings visited N. America (beyond?).
Then, there are the continuing revelations about Joe & his predilections.
Holland seems like a blind-folded kid swinging at a pinata that he has No Hope of reaching.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2015 01:47AM by GNPE.
Good question. Holland has been shoved into a very bad position by those above him. They insist that he defend the church, but they also want to remain above it all. When he looks desperate or foolish, they figure it makes them look confident and inspired. I'm convinced they look at things that way.
"I readily acknowledge the very legitimate inquiries of many who are perfectly honest in heart. I also readily acknowledge that everyone has some gospel question or other yet to be answered."
And that's all he's got. Acknowledge the inquiries and shut them down in the next sentence.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2015 08:22AM by iris.
Holland said: "We’ve recently addressed a dozen or so of these issues in a series of essays, desiring to be both accurate and transparent within the framework of faith. Not all gospel questions have answers yet, but they will, and they’ll come. In the meantime, I have a question. What conceivable historical or doctrinal or procedural issue that may arise among any group could ever overshadow or negate one’s consuming spiritual conviction regarding the Father’s merciful plan of salvation, His only begotten Son’s birth, mission, atonement and resurrection, the reality of the first vision, the restoration of the priesthood, the receipt of divine revelation both personally and institutionally, the soul shaping spirit and moving power of the Book of Mormon, the awe and majesty of the temple endowment, one’s own personal experience with true miracles, and on and on and on? It is a mystery to me – talk about a question – it is a mystery to me how those majestic, eternal first level truths so central to the grandeur of the whole gospel message can be set aside or completely dismissed by some in favor of obsessing over second or third or fourth level pieces of that whole. To me, this is in the words attributed to Edith Horton truly being trapped in the thick of thin things."
Basically he's saying completely ignore the truth and base your entire life on our lies and bullshit.
My question to him: What "reality of the first vision", "restoration of the priesthood", "receipt of divine revelation", "the moving power of the Book of Mormon", and "the awe and majesty of the temple endowment"? All of these have clearly been proven without doubt to not be what TSCC claims they are.
Templar Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > "What...could ever overshadow or negate one’s consuming spiritual conviction regarding the Father’s merciful plan of salvation, His only begotten Son’s birth, mission, atonement and resurrection,...one’s own personal experience with true miracles, and on and on and on?
All of these are also available at your local mainstream or nondenominational Christian church at a fraction of the cost of Mormonism. You would also have many fewer demands on your time, resources, clothing choices, drink choices, etc.
The thing is, the questions people have are not "gospel questions" per se. He makes it sound as though we are throwing a fit because there are some details of the wonderful "gospel plan" that we can't understand.
The reality is that the questions people have are of an entirely different nature. They revolve around testable and verifiable matters of fact that bring into doubt the very foundational claims of mormonism.
The church has paraded their "facts" for the world to see for generations and touted them as the very reason for accepting and believing mormonism. These "facts" of which they were so unshakably confident, formed the very bedrock of all their claims.
Now that the majority of their claims have been shown to be baseless, untrue, or outright fabrications, all of a sudden they are just small details that have no real significance.
I cannot understand how a person who in his own words "has been to a couple of good schools" himself, can stand up and spout such nonsense. Even more difficult to understand is how educated people can sit in the audience nodding their heads in approval. Have they all given up on reality? Does Holland think he can eliminate the problems just be reclassifying them as something other than what they really are? It makes reason stare.
Things aren't going his way. Probably a bit of dissonance haunting the old guy.
From an annointed and revered church leader where "no evil can be spoken," to be re-labeled as a dodo.... gotta be difficult to handle for a man of his professed education.
I agree. The foundational "truths" I was raised on, and taught to my children, and to many others in lessons at church, are not true. How can they carry on without those foundational stories?
When people's livelihood depend on the CES, do they shut down their research and intellect to teach their students?
After he goes on his angry rant he says this: (at 52:52)
"Nevertheless, we would hope for skeptic, believer, and everyone in between, that humility, faith, the influence of the holy spirit would always be elements of every quest for truth. That foundational truths would always be the reference points in that quest, and that all other issues which may yet need resolving are pursued by study and also by faith".
I found this to be insulting. Right off the bat I thought that he said "Nevertheless" to make his remark sound scriptural and earth-shatteringly important. No one talks like this, so I think that he wanted to imply that the lord gave him the following information, since we all know that the lord likes Elizabethan style English. LOL
I didn't start out as a skeptic with my questions. I was a full on believer with a lot of humility and faith and fully believing that the holy spirit would guide me in my quest for truth. I feel like he is implying that the problem is with me. I have fallen for that my whole life in mormonism. The church wants me to think that something is wrong with me. Baloney. Once I quit believing that piece of crap that they keep throwing at me I was able to see that I am not the one that is flawed. There is something wrong with the message.
Foundational "truths" as he put it, that he wants to be reference points, became suspect as well after reading about them ON THE OFFICIAL CHURCH WEBSITE! By the way, among his earlier listed foundational "truths" was the first vision. That wasn't even on my radar until the church kindly pointed it out to me.
He says that other issues should pursued by study and also by faith. Lets face it folks, how can you study it when they suppress important information, and say that the only way you can get reliable information is through them? What he really wanted to stress was the "by faith" aspect.
I was shocked at the seriously angry tone he had during his rant. It totally negated the weepy catch in his voice later. It made me think of the song in the Southpark episode. FAKE,FAKE,FAKE,FAKE,FAKE. By the way, I did not see the Southpark episode until after all of my faithfully humble questioning had been satisfactorily answered by the holy spirit which for me turned out to be my own moral conscience.