My TBM wife tried to be open and understanding for the last year or so, and I loved her for it. She understood that there were good reasons to doubt/leave, she wasn't judgemental, etc... However, now she's gone full-mega-hyper-TBM, and I HATE it!

Our daughter is turning 8 later this year. My wife says it's her decision, she won't pressure her, etc..., but then she plays primary baptism songs all day, brings it up in conversation everyday, pushes her to read the BoM followed by leading questions. After a cousin's baptism asks "Did you feel good or bad at the baptism?...that was the spirit telling you that you should be baptized."

I don't know what to do. My wife would leave me if I spent half as much time telling my kids the truth, asking them to think, singing songs about Joe being a perv and a criminal.

Someone suggested that a best-selling title for Deseret Book would be "Free Agency, and how to enforce it."

I'm in the same boat as you. Just remember, if you have a plan to get everyone out then this is a meaningless ceremony, and she is feeling the heat because not baptizing the daughter is going to raise red flags everywhere.

make life time commitments???????

Ask her in what world that is normal?

And why she is blind to cult indoctrination tactics?

Cults trick new recruits into joining the group and committing themselves to a cause or lifestyle they don't fully understand.

Does an eight year old fully understand what they are committing to?

http://people.howstuffworks.com/cult4.htm

Eight year old children do not have the knowledge, intellectual maturity, or emotional maturity to make informed decisions about accepting or not accepting doctrines and claims.

I suggested in another thread to make up a "church doctrine" test, comparing mormon doctrines to those of other churches and of things like secular humanism. Make it hard, adult-level. Tell wife and child that the child can be baptized when the child can answer the questions correctly, and explain why he/she arrived at those answers. That demonstrates knowledge and maturity. Until those are demonstrated, making an informed consent "baptism" decision isn't possible.

Some battles are not worth fighting over.

Baptism of an 8 year old probably isn't the battle you want to fight over. Particularly as the child just wants to fit in with friends and family.

Your battle comes later, once the child is more mature and able to understand the issues you have with the church.

I was divorced when my oldest was 7 - nail in the marriage coffin was my unbelief in the the stupid church.
I let my two kids get baptised at 8 year old, I let them get the priesthood at 12. I only told them I didn't believe in the church, but I'd support them with whatever they wanted to do. I kept reminding them that my love for them was not conditional on the choices they made.

The oldest is now 17, now I am able to attack the church history and teachings with vengeance. He understands the problems the church has and it will be a miracle if he stays in the church once he is way from his TBM mothers influence.

The youngest is even more convinced the church is bogus, but living under the powerful influence of their mother they are forced to attend and go through the motions.

Wait for your battles, they will come later. In the meantime just politely remind your daughter you do not believe and give her age appropriate reasons why.

If you are really brave, tell your daughter that you will support her against her mother if that is what she wants to do, but you will never push your daughter in any particular church direction.

I favor not allowing this until the child is at least twelve years old. That's when they START to have some ability to think for themselves and say what they do or do not want to do. An eight year old basically has instincts to do what his/her parents want and fit in with the family as part of survival. It's wrong to have children do this at eight years old.

raiku Wrote:
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> I favor not allowing this until the child is at
> least twelve years old. That's when they START to
> have some ability to think for themselves and say
> what they do or do not want to do. An eight year
> old basically has instincts to do what his/her
> parents want and fit in with the family as part of
> survival. It's wrong to have children do this at
> eight years old.

Yes, I thought of that approach to. But I didn't want to make the baptism thing a big deal.

It would have simply been to easy for my ex-wife to use that as ammunition against me. Using my stand against baptism as evidence that I am the bad parent.

For me it is working well to not create fights and drama with the TBM ex, but to slowly undermine the church with age appropriate discussions with the child about the silly church. Always reinforcing the message that my love is not conditional on their choice - which it isn't of course.

Slow and steady wins the batle with a child, that is how the Mormons do it to draw them in. The same techniques also work in reverse. ;o)

Consider writing her a letter that would make sense to an eight year old. Keep a copy (since your wife might toss it). Later, when she resents the church for whatever reason, she can read the letter again, and again... and know you wanted her to wait until age 18, that you wanted to protect her.

I agree not to put her in the middle of a competition. She will want to do what her friends are doing. If you want her to think for herself, stay engaged with the crap she is taught at church. Discuss it and counteract the mind meld. Ask her questions, "Do you think that makes sense? Why not?"

Always steer her toward college and a viable career. There may be groups you can take her to that don't exclusively have LDS kids. Girls STEM groups to compete with LEGOS Robotics... Make sure she has achievements/interests that are outside of church fluff and nonsense for girls. Hang in there dad! Even if your marriage doesn't make it, remain interested in her activities. Good luck!