asked me to read the Book of Mormon.

I read through 2nd Nephi.

Based on what little knowledge I have about Jewish history, biblical history, and early America, I can tell and very clearly, that the book is really just a very bad work of fiction.

The reason I've come here is that I'm trying to understand how that's not clear to the average mormon.

My Girlfriend is someone I consider to be very intelligent. More intelligent and well read than me.

She either hasn't ever really read the book in context or is really brainwashed.

I'm afraid to tell her the truth.

Because from literally birth, she's been told, and now believes, that the BofM is a literal history, written as it was being lived, and then translated by a prophet who at the age of 15 met with ghawd the father, Elohim, and his son Jesus/Jehovah, at a Starbucks in upstate New York. She "Knows" this is the truth. Attempts to present facts (and there are SOOOOO many of them!) just don't work.

Therefore any attempts to paint this as a pure fabrication must be met with disdain!

Let's say you're a die-hard Cubs fan... Up until they finally won the World Series, they were just lovable losers. But they kept filling their stadium! All the facts were there! People should not root for the Cubs because they were NOT going to deliver a pennant! But there were still plenty of fans. Facts would not dissuade people from rooting for them, for believing that This Year It'll be Different. But unlike the BofM ever being true, the Cubbies Did finally deliver.

There's a saying in the church (that I just made up): "Sometimes facts not only don't matter, they're not important!"

Oh, yeah, I forgot to respond on the "I'm afraid to tell her the truth" issue.

You should be if you really care for her because if she's really serious about mormonism, she'll have to dump you. It might even hurt her a great deal, but she has to think about Eternity!

See, if you're not ready, willing and able to convert, get the priesthood, rise in your callings and then take her to the temple to be married for all time and eternity, then she has to find a young man who will.

That's the path she must follow to please her parents, grandparents, siblings, etc.

and don't forget that your parent's can't attend the wedding in the temple.... they aren't good enough people.

That made my head twirl.... run , get out, run as fast as you

can. Stay away from mormon girl already bossing you around.

I would say...even if she is the sweetest woman around, she is committed to this fraud. Even if you made her think twice, and she even doubted or realized something wasn't right, she's likely to double-down at some point and become a terror. Walk away. Now. Really.

Because she (or somebody else, who then told her about it) had a "feeling" she got from "praying to ask if it's true."

And feelings trump facts.

In mormonism and lots of other religions.

Like saucie, I don't see this ending well. Might be best to start looking for a new girlfriend. Maybe one who's not mormon...

Okay, if my memory serves me correctly, 2 Nephi is mostly quotations from Isaiah. The problem here is that Smith used the King James Translation, complete with flaws and errors that the discovery of older Biblical manuscripts would bring to light. If the Book of Mormon were the most perfect book on Earth, as Smith taught, then why did the errors from 1611 show up in 1830?

She has been indoctrinated from birth that the BOM is "true." Her parents, extended family, and church friends have sworn up and down ("testified") of the truth of the BOM. They have been programmed not to see how stupid the book is. There has never been any reason for her to doubt the word of everyone she has grown up with. Mormonism is an insular, closed system. It's a cult.

Do you see yourselves married some day? It's not going to happen. She has been told countless times that she MUST get married in a mormon temple. You're unable to do that, since you aren't mormon. She's also been pressured to stick exclusively with returned mormon missionaries ("RMs") since they're the only ones righteous and worthy enough for a precious daughter of Zion.

This is why she's giving you the BOM spiel. You must convert to have any kind of a real chance with her. (The church phrase is "flirt to convert" and it's a real thing.) Once baptized, to avoid being dumped you'll have to serve a 2-yr mormon mission (if you're not too old; you don't give your age). During those two years, she'll most likely find another RM and dump you anyway.

You're trying to sprint into a hurricane-force headwind.

Telling her the truth won't get you anywhere. She'll either dismiss your arguments out of hand or get really upset. Given the choice of her church, family, and the only social support system she's ever known, or a lone unbeliever (you), she will pick the former. But as I said, you two have no real future together. For what it's worth, my advice is to cut your losses and get out while it's relatively easy.

in b 4 ~ girlfriend prolly never read past 1st Nephi ~


good for OPie on making it to 2nd Nephi ~


she must be a special girl for OPie to make it that far ~


ziller used to be a true believing mormon ~


ziller read the BoM to prepare for a mormon mission ~


ziller was no longer a true beleefing mormon after that ~


ziller's advice =


1) get a copy of the CES letter ~ (google it) ~


2) ask her to sincerely help you study thru the issues ~


3) profit ? ~ either it will help you help her to study her sweet intelligent self out of the church or it will wreck your relationship ~


either way OPie wins ~



ETA: IN ~ for links to pics of OPie's mormon girlfriend ~



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2018 10:53PM by ziller.

Get a new girlfriend - and fast.

I was that girlfriend 20 years ago. I thought for sure if my boyfriend just read the bom he would “ know the truth”. He did know the truth, that it was all crap. Luckily for me, he was nice about it, didn’t ask me to choose(and I didn’t ask him to choose either). We have been married 19 years but I didn’t leave the church till 3 years ago. He never pushed, always supported me with what I was doing and I learned to respect that and not push him to do something he didn’t want to do. I hate that it took me so long to realize what a load of crap it all is, but I am so glad I didn’t listen to all the Mormons who told me I shouldn’t marry him because he wasn’t Mormon. He is absolutely the best thing that has ever happened to me, so, be gentle. Hopefully she is smart enough to realize that you are your own person and can make your own decisions.

Great patience has brought him great rewards.


Unfortunately, patience can be a rare commodity: I certainly had none where the sham of mormonism is concerned.

Of course the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction - we know this from DNA results.

American Indians are NOT Jews,Hebrews, or Semites.
Their DNA is Asian.

Hard to believe that otherwise intelligent people would by into Mormon crapola,

buy

BEWARE!


Women (sometimes) give sex to get love;

she might be the VERY BEST you've ever been with, AND claim to be very Mormon; but, that's one hypocrisy that many Mormons readily accept...

She might be the prettiest girlfriend you have had until now, but that is no reason to join a church that will always be more important to her than you are.
She must be pretty if you got all the way to 2 Nephi.
She is an enigma... a contradiction, a mystery. I understand the attraction.
If she is like I was, it is pure brainwashing... the only kind that comes since birth. And that is some serious baggage. I would rank it up there with drug habit level of baggage.
10 years from now she will have 5 kids and dream of the days she spent with you.
Run Forest, run!

This is book explains how and why intelligent follks believe strange things.

https://michaelshermer.com/2002/09/smart-people-believe-weird-things/

Good to remember that visions and other metaphysical claims do not require facts. They are believed by faith.

Ask her if the BoM were a total fake, would she want to know. If the answer is No, you’re finished. If yes, read up on the Book of Abraham fraud. That book is so easily proven a fraud you wouldn’t believe it. It’s completely debunked. First get her to see that. If the BoA is bogus, the BoM is then in question. However, it’s an uphill battle. Even if she can be rehabilitated, she has parents who will always look down on you for not converting. It’s an all or nothing religion.

Mormon girls are like cougars encroaching on towns because of lack of prey in their natural habitat. Mormon guys are leaving in droves thanks to the Internet.

I think it depends on her personality. If she’s open minded and agreeable, you have a shot. Try changing her mind about something simple to see how it goes.

"Mormon guys are leaving in droves"

A few years ago, TBM DW confided in me that the mormon church (meaning her ward) was becoming a church for old women. I didn't inquire further, and I've never set foot in the building myself. (We are way outside of the morridor.)

DW no longer goes to church, though she continues to believe, to faithfully wear her garments, and to read the Book of Bunkum.

My wife is the opposite. She attends church faithfully, but has not worn garments in years.

Sometimes exmos refer to the Book of Mormon (BoM) as "bible fan fiction."

The BoM time frame goes from roughly 2200 B.C. to 421 A.D. There are many historical anachronisms such as steel, animals such as horses, cattle, goats, elephants, etc. and crops such as barley and wheat that did not exist in the Americas at the time. There are many other arguments against the BoM as well, such as geographic and linguistic arguments (it borrows heavily from the King James version of the Bible.)

Mormons pretty much have to twist themselves into pretzels trying to justify why the BoM is "true." And yet they do, because it's a part of their religious faith system. Mormonism relies heavily on feelings, not so much on facts. If you were being taught by the Mormon missionaries, you would be asked to read the BoM, and then to "pray to know if it's true."

I married a Mormon. I told her repeatedly before we married that I would not convert.

She asked me to read the BoM, which I did. She assumed I would change my mind and convert. I didn't.

She made my conversion a ward project, and I was subjected to a full-court press from several people in the ward, not just the missionaries. I still didn't convert.

She insisted on a Nauvoo vacation hoping that I would feel the spirit and convert. I didn't. In fact, I ended up in a very heated argument with a missionary in Carthage, who my wife had encouraged to engage me and set me straight on the church. Unfortunately for the missionary, I had done my research and knew more about Mormonism than she did. Even my wife was surprised by how much I knew, because until that moment I hadn't shared what I learned because I knew it would be pointless.

Every argument we've had during our five years of marriage, and there have been many, has been directly attributable to my refusal to convert. The climax of most of those arguments is her saying that she must choose between me or the church.

I still love my wife and have no intention of divorcing her. However, I've told her that there is a limit to how long I will tolerate that sword of Damocles hanging over my head.

The upshot is that if I were to go back in time, I'd tell my younger self to run away from the kind, funny, warm-hearted woman I fell in love with.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2018 08:35AM by GregS.

Greg, that is so sad.

I can only hope that someday, her choice will have been made -- and she will have chosen you. What a day that will be, huh? :)

Thank you, Hie.

Our last argument was three months ago. During that argument she also raised the question of why I was so reluctant to purchase a house that we could call "ours". I told her that I don't want to make that kind of investment with somebody who is regularly threatening to leave me. Her sister had also weighed in and told my wife that she was going to lose the best thing that ever happened to her if she didn't allow me my "agency".

Since then my wife has been more conciliatory, and we have been house-hunting. I am under no illusion that getting a new house will solve anything, but it will make her happy by checking off one of the things she's wanted since we married.

I also realize that I'm playing a little too close to the fire because the new house that we are close to closing on will be in her sister's ward. My wife has been mostly inactive for the past year, and she sees this move as a chance to reactivate herself because she can go to church with her sister and family rather than with me (though I've never complained or groused about it).

It's a gamble, sure, but it's a gamble where I really have no expectation of any particular outcome. I wish that my wife could find happiness outside of the church, but she's made herself miserable while she's been inactive. I can't fix that for her, but there are still things I can do to make things easier for her.

Your wife might hate sitting by herself in church, Greg. Multiple board members have reported that TBMs can be unkind to older women who attend church alone. Hopefully sitting with her sister and her sister's family will solve the problem.

But there go all your weekends.
She won't be able to do anything fun or go anywhere if she sits in church all day.

Not to mention that she'll come home all charged up to work on converting you .
Her sister undoubted cautioned her to be more subtle about it, that's all.

undoubtedly

I hate to throw a fly in your Chateaubriand, Greg, but you need to be very, very careful.

Here's a short anecdote about a nevermo Catholic husband married to a TBM wife from a couple years ago:

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1777342

If she's secretly playing the long game to get you in, a house will just be additional significant leverage to pressure you.

Yikes. I vaguely remember that post, and it is the type of scenario I've weighed in my decision to move forward with a new house.

It is a real concern, and I've looked at my situation from several angles...many of which play out pessimistically. I came down, eventually, on the premise that if I what to stay with her I have to put some trust in her. Right now I'm trusting that her previous ultimatums, none of them carried out, were borne of insecurity and not malice or avarice.

Greg, I have the same concerns as Dallin Ox, but figured you had already taken those concerns into account. But maybe not.

IMO your wife has not yet earned your trust when it comes to further financial entanglement. A few months of treating you with the basic level of tolerance and respect that you have deserved all along? Not good enough in my book. Please, please, please, do what you need to do to protect your financial interests. If that means a post-nup before buying a home, so be it. Talk to a family lawyer and share your concerns.

Greg, it takes two. It can't be all on you. She has to be all in as well, and personally, I would give it a few more years of good behavior on her part before putting your financial future at risk. *She* needs to realize that she has a good thing. Right now, I'm not convinced that's the case.

Mormon is a special kind of crazy.

some 40 years ago. He had already read the bofm. He was coming to work in Utah and thought he should have an idea of what mormonism was all about. In fact, many of my exmo friends I met at Thiokol (now ATK) had read the bofm. Go figure. I knew many mormons who hadn't read the bofm. I read it many times. Can't say that I ever had a testimony of it, but I was raised to BELIEVE and I had been taught to live in fear of losing my family, which was my biggest reason for sticking around.

I was extremely devout, but mormon guys never dated me. Probably because they knew I was so strait laced. So I finally told this guy I'd date him as he had asked for at least 6 months. I was the secretary of the group of chemists and scientists and he is a chemist. Well, I fell head over heels in love. He asked me to marry him. I couldn't do it. He even said he would convert, but he didn't believe and he told me that and I knew he never would believe. He said he felt parents should be on the same page with religion, so he left. And he got married and I didn't, but God was supposed to bring me MY ONE AND ONLY (lots to know about mormonism). I eventually met and married. My story is all over the board. I don't need to repeat it.

So after my husband had been gone for 9 years, I found out that this old boyfriend was getting a divorce. Our old boss (who was a good mormon guy) called the old boyfriend and he called me and the rest is history. It only took me 27 years to right the wrong.

IF I had married him at age 20, I would have badgered him to become mormon. AND I probably never would have found my way out.

You can tell her what you feel about the bofm, but I doubt she'll stop believing. BUT she might. Who knows. But they've promised her a forever family and she can get married in the castle (temple). She may be freaked out by the temple, but it still is what we young mormon girls had been taught to dream of all our lives.

Thank you for all of the responses and input.

Kind group of people.

I decided to ask her a few questions as I was unclear prior to your responses what the depth of this was.

Long discussion ensued.

The basic gist?

She doesn't follow the churches' rules regarding sexual activity, but no one our age does.

She will only marry in church either in temple or to someone who will commit to temple within a short time of marriage.

Even if "in love" (which she claims she is) - church wins.

Facts of book of mormon are real and many men smarter than me believe it and have proven it actually happened.

In response to a list of some weird things I gathered from the internet and gently read to her, she got a bit teary eyed and said that nothing really mattered because it is God's church and she knows it's true and nothing will ever change. Can't imagine not raising children in it.

I listened carefully and compassionately.

We had sex later. It was nice.

I am trying to digest the craziness.

Well, if you don't run after hearing all that from your girlfriend, I'd say you can't complain down the road if you stay with her.

I've realized in this very short few days that I really am in love and having been in love once before, I know that connection is very difficult to undo.

Not looking forward to it.

Will take a week or so and decide how exactly to break news.

I don't want to spend a long time trying to convince her to understand just to have her wake up one day and tell me that she meant what she already said.

Sounds like will have to walk and just deal with it.

Do you have to get married? Can't you just continue being in love and having nice sex?

This is a genuine question. I live in France where all this is very different. I've been unmarried to my partner for 35 years and we're still together, with 3 adult children. It can be made to work (hint: it's every bit as hard and wonderful as staying married ;-).

Is it unthinkable to imagine a similar situation (perhaps without the children... ;-) ? Is it culturally impossible where you are?

Tom in Paris

I suppose.

But that isn't part of her agenda.

She's having a bit of fun still now I think (24) but is looking to marry.

Good luck

Just live together is not good advice here. The two people more or less bump along and then there is pressure, even very subtle pressure or just the expectation that they will end up marrying, and they do, without having made a fully conscious choice to do so. More of a slide, like a slide into a particular career or a slide into bankruptcy or into alcoholism.

>>She will only marry in church either in temple or to someone who will commit to temple within a short time of marriage.

Your girlfriend has already told you who she is and what her non-negotiable is. I would believe her. Believe people when they show you who they are!

Visiting, you sound like a genuine catch. You are earning good money, you have good prospects, and by your own accounting you are loving and generous. Why are you settling for a woman who thinks you are not good enough for her?

You pay many of her expenses? You let her drive your car? You are willing to share a future with her and build a family together? And that isn't good enough for her? The woman has lost her mind.

It can't be all on you. *The love that you feel isn't enough.* She has to feel it too! And honestly, right now she doesn't. She probably never will. You may be the best man that ever came along for her, but she is not in a position to see that, and likely will not be in any reasonable time frame. IMO you should let her go.

Find someone that treasures you as you are. There are lots of good women out there -- lots of women that you can fall in love with if you open your heart. You need to think enough of yourself to insist on what you deserve. And that is not a woman who will never think that you are good enough for her if you do not convert.

See what I mean about denial? Proven that it’s true, many more have proven that it’s false. Well not false in terms of what it’s clumsily trying to convey, but definitely not an ancient record. It’s pure 19th century, upstate NY, Rigdonism. Not only is the narrative physically impossible in many places, lexical analysis has discovered which books common in the 19th century it was cribbed from. But don’t blame your GF. It’s a lot to take in all at once. When I learned my whole life was I lie, it really threw me for a loop. No wonder people try so hard to avoid an upheaval like that.

The world is so much bigger than Mormonism’s special island. Sorry, Captain Jack. Ask her if God will still love her if she leaves the island. If yes, she should open her eyes.

No need to bring it all to a head and end a nice relationship. If you're in love in your 20s, enjoy it while it lasts! It sounds like you are enjoying yourselves and not being too restricted by her ingrained beliefs.

In my experience, first love in your 20s is very intense and introduces you to some of the highs and lows of a deep relationship. No need to move in together or get married and have kids.

I had a 5 year relationship in my 20s which was an essential learning experience and eventually failed. Other relationships followed. I met the mother of my 2 kids when I was 42. I have never regretted any of my other relationships, even though they all failed or stopped for one reason or another.

My advice - don't pull the pin on a nice relationship until the weight of her future limited options causes an irreparable barrier. You both have many years left before you need to be settling down and having children.

They've been brainwashed to believe that reading it will infuse a person's brain with the truth that mormonism is the one true church and the only path to God.

Sounds crazy but this is how mormons think.

They're not using the rational area of their brain for this. Brain research has found that most people have a faith based religion area of the brain that houses these special religious precepts and experiences.

Mormon or not, your girlfriend is mixed up. She supposedly loves her church, yet she is not faithful to it. She is a liar, and she is immoral.

Do you know that if she wanted to go to the temple, she would have to LIE to her bishop, and say she was not having sex. Yes, the temple worthiness interview does include questions about the member's sex life!

I would assume her "love" for you is equally as weak and superficial. Good sex. Keep that in perspective, because that's probably all it is.

You know that many Mormon women use sex as a manipulative tool, right? I'm sure other men and women use sex, too, but I speak from my experience living in the girl's dorms at BYU, and the stories would make the hair stand up on the back of your neck. (Do you have money, for example?)

She has ruined her own "worthiness", and already she is blaming you! If you stay with her, she will blame you for everything bad that happens.

I was also that Mormon girlfriend, except I was faithful, and moral, and honest. The love of my life was a wonderful young man who was an Atheist. He was my brother's best friend, and had lost his parents when he was 5. We became his surrogate family. That's how close we were. I didn't remember any time in my life when I didn't love him! When I got older, my crush was reciprocated. I was brainwashed since birth in the Mormon cult, and turned down his proposal of marriage, because I was always taught that I had to marry a returned missionary. Except for the love of my life, I dated ONLY Mormon boys. I went to BYU, and never met anyone decent, or genuine, or normal. My One Love was irreplaceable, and no one measured up. He was the finest man I ever knew. He and his wife are still my friends, and his wife has had a dream life! I married two Mormons. The first one beat me, and the second one cheated on me.

What I'm telling you is that I found the love of my life--my soulmate--and I still love him--but even with a strong, life-long love like that--I gave it up for the Mormon cult. Also, I gave him up to please my parents. My parents loved him, too, but wanted a temple marriage for me, so they manipulated me out of it. They made me wait. They took me to Europe to get me away from him. They promised me a college education, but it had to be at BYU.

Mormons don't love like normal people. Their religion and their church president preaches AGAINST UNCONDITIONAL LOVE! My love had to be conditional, that my soulmate needed to be Mormon.

Your girlfriend and her parents and all of her family will NOT love you, unless you join. Mormons are ruthless and underhanded in their manipulations, and they will probably be the ones who will break you up, in the end.

Whatever battling, manipulation, trickery, and family pressure you might be ahead for you, your children will suffer far more than you will! Mormonism is a cancer spread from generation to generation.

Or--you can tell her that you would love to join the Mormon cult, and enjoy all your polygamous wives in the hereafter!

Oh yes, Mormon love. You notice how nice exmos are? That’s because our empathy was suppressed all those years. After leaving, it came back big time. Under the clean veneer, Mormonism is not so pretty. What a way to live, under the thumbs of brainwashed control freaks.

There’s one more thing to consider: How are members treated when they leave? They’re not treated well. Divorce is common. It’s a train wreck. Shunning, avoidance, the old stink eye because now the devil has them. Because after decades of faithful service, the truth slapped them in the face. Nobody should join such an organization under any circumstances and if they’re part of it they are morally obligated to leave. Love does not reside there.

Two words: Really brainwashed.

I'm 28 and make a good living in work that will allow me to make much more. Own a home and pay many of her expenses even though we don't technically live together.

She dresses well, eats well, and drives my second car.


She is still in school - masters degree and doesn't earn alot.


This string and specifically your comments have hit me hard.

Is it always church over love?

I wasn't raised this way, my mind is having a hard time wrapping around this.

"Is it always church over love?"

"I wasn't raised this way, my mind is having a hard time wrapping around this."

I lurked here several months before I started posting. During that time I read many accounts of marriages broken up, children disowned, siblings feuding, and thought that it was just a bunch of hyperbole from bitter ex-Mormons. But it wasn't too long after my marriage that I saw enough firsthand accounts among my Mormon in-laws to see that this publicly pro-family religion is indifferent to family, at best, and anti-family at worst.

Converts outside the Morridor seem to be a little more tolerant, but only because they are often a small minority in their communities and have to play nice with their neighbors. But the families within the wards are still judgmental and pressuring of those families who have members who are wavering in their faith.

Apostates don't just bring shame on themselves, but on to their families, as well. When a child leaves the church, they are practically mourned as though they had died.

I was raised Catholic, and this world was a shock to me. I thought Catholics had the market cornered on guilt and shame; it's got nothing on the Mormons.

"She doesn't follow the churches' rules regarding sexual activity, but no one our age does."

She would be wrong. I know MANY who don't have sex before marriage and I'm not talking about my 61-year-old self, but many of the kids my children's age.
And she has a fun repentance process to go through if she decides to marry in the temple.

I guess I'm an old stick in the mud as I saved myself for marriage as per the lds teachings. She stands up for her lds beliefs and then has sex with you. Makes perfect sense to me.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2018 02:58PM by cl2.

Are you getting it yet? CHURCH over everything else.

That is a True Believing Mormon, regardless of how many rules they break.
If she has that kind of "testimony" which you described is unshakable, the sooner you let go of this mess, the better. And believe me, it is a huge mess.

This is a non-negotiable issue with her. Got it?
She won't budge. She "repents" so she can be married in the church or a temple, and she gets her "eternal marriage" promise.

You are not a match. Love will not override CHURCH. She is just having fun, sewing her oats, using you as much as she can to get as much as she can which you are, in the name of love, willing to give.

The sooner you let her know you are not a match, you cannot accept her belief system, nor would you ever be married in her church or temple, the better.

My guess is that as soon as you let her go, she'll be married to a Mormon in the church or temple in six months to a year.
That is so common, it's almost a rule. :-)

I have a grandson your age. And great grand children. I was a convert and lived it to the max for over three decades. I lived in this intrusive, all encompassing religious culture long enough to know how they think!

There is not a snowballs chance in hell that she will change her mind.

OK, I was wrong, once, back in 1957. (That's my old joke!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2018 06:44PM by SusieQ#1.

Time will not heal everything--this time. You will be the exception that proves that rule.

The church will be exponentially more important always. She will never give up hope of your conversion. If you have children she will insist they be indoctrinated too. She will fight tooth and toenail for that because she must ensure their salvation and exaltation. The entire ward will join her in indoctrinating them against your will. And wait till you see what the in-laws will do to make sure their grand kids are Mormon even as they look at you as "less than." They will teach your kids to see you as "less than" too. It will kill you to try and make a compromise and watch them possibly get sucked in as well. Run.

I have been out for forty years. All of my family is still extreme Mormon and for all of them the church is first over everything. I am "less than" in my family. It is not very nice.

Too few of us are able to reclaim ourselves.

How on earth did you make it through Second Nephi? How?

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Listen to this post. Read it over and over. Many of us have lived through this or some member of our family or loved ones and friends have.

Children have been baptised into the Mormon church behind the un- suspecting parents back, grandparents have fought for custody in divorces,the non-believing parents have been accused of crimes they did not commit, lied about on the stand by lawyers, and on and on. The carnage is immense.

You've sinned, you're lazy, or lack judgement. You are a project and someone to be pitied. This is institutionalized.

Since your girlfriend asked you to read the Book of Mormon, ask her to read The CES Letter

https://cesletter.org/CES-Letter.pdf

or

A Letter For my Wife

http://www.letterformywife.com/letter



Good luck.

Yup, if you’re going to be her project you want equal time.

I would be extremely interested in the outcome of your G/F being presented with a print-out of this thread!

I did talk to her about CES document. She agreed to review it with me.

"No way"

Yeah, probably for the best. I am comforted by the knowledge that, should my wife ever stumble upon this site, she would pass out from shock long before she ever found one of my posts. ;)

some of the comments I made above about our personal life.

otherwise - I would share.

Some are more tribalist than others. Their first concern is pleasing the larger group, which they rely on for support and protection.

Which is why marriage is often BS. You think that the primary loyalty is between husband and wife, but turns out you are not number one.

She is married to family and church, and is just looking to get some benefits from you. She will be constantly discussing you with her spouse (family and church), as to how to convert you and get even more control over you.

Know that the church gives her great control over you. Sex is considered dirty, so she won't have to offer it as often. Then masturbation and porn are also evil, so she can report you to the bishop for disciplinary action if you ever look at porn.

More money for less sex - good deal for her.

Then there's the whole status thing. Women prefer dominant males, so if you can climb the leadership ladder, her status improves, and therefore her power in the tribe.

Money, sex, status. That is life for most people.