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Posted by: SLDrone ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 12:09AM

I wrote this essay several years ago shortly after being released as a mission president. Packer's recent remarks and the subsequent backlash motivate me to bring it out for another run.

The phone rang late one night. My wife answered it and shook me with some urgency, something about one of the elders really needs you. Rising from the fog of sleep and forcing myself to pass into consciousness I mumbled a groggy hello. “President, it’s over. I can’t I just can’t …… I think you need to send me home”, he nearly yelled into the phone. His despair quite apparent. “What’s wrong elder, what has happened”, I was suddenly very much awake. “President, I’m GAY ok? I’m GAY! I thought Heavenly Father would fix me if I was a good missionary. I’ve done everything I can, but it’s just getting worse. Why am I like this? What did I do? It’s not fair. I need to go home”.

“Elder, bring your companion and catch the early express train. It get’s here about 9:00 AM. I’ll send your comp with one of my AP’s and we’ll go have breakfast. Don’t worry elder, don’t panic, it will be ok”, I said. He started to cry and agreed to meet me. He was a great missionary, one of my best., and a wonderful person. My heart ached, I never fell back to sleep that night.

Over breakfast in a quiet European sidewalk café he told me he’d known from a very early age that he had an attraction to the same sex. He’d never acted on it, in fact had gone out of his way to date young women, and yet there it was. Constantly gnawing at his desire, men catching his attention. We talked into the afternoon. I helped him to understand that this was not something he had chosen, Neither was it punishment for some sin. It simply is the way it is. He did have a choice though, His choice was whom or what would have his allegiance. He could be true to himself, or he could be true to his religion. I didn’t see how he could do both.

Although Mormonism has made some progress, it has not arrived at the point of embracing it’s sexually active homosexual members. The two concepts are mutually exclusive. I didn’t at the time know which choice was best. Both choices seemed to have their pros and cons. He began to sob, his body convulsing. I put my arms around him and held him until he regained his composure. I told him I loved him. I felt his tears soak through the fabric of my shirt and onto my shoulder, the tenseness of his body ridged with pain. He cried and with each tear he seemed to release years of pain, of hiding, of shame and self loathing. He’d endured a lot to cover his secret. Why? It made me angry that he or anyone should have to endure such meaningless anguish. It was then and there at that very moment that I finally and forever understood bigotry and it’s power to destroy.

What kinds of gods do people create, so often full of hatred, anger and bigotry? Members of the LDS faith were once persecuted, hated and driven from their homes, in part by other religious zealots repulsed by unconventional “marriages.” Now, come full circle, the once-bullied have joined themselves with the bullies in the voice of bigotry as they battle their boogeymen.

American youths and innocent civilians continue to die in an unjustifiable war. Greed leads to world wide financial collapse. Millions of innocents die of still uncured viruses. Religion- and ethnic-induced hatreds rage worldwide. Poverty runs amok and the poor starve. Yet when the Mormon God speaks, he speaks out against two people who love each other and want to express that love in a committed formal way.

I imagine a day will come when the LDS Church will regret lending its support to a failed constitutional amendment that did nothing more than divide a nation and rally bigoted and frightened people to the ballot box. The attempt to amend the constitution of the United States failed, attempts in individual states are faltering on issues of constitutionality, Utah and it’s Mormon theocracy would still march forward, reaching out to hate someone. Mormon leaders continue even today in the crusade against the rights and pursuit of happiness of those they fear and misunderstand.

There is a parallel with the way the LDS Church today marginalizes the gay community much as it once marginalized the black community. To previous generations of Mormons, blacks were descendants of Cain and less valiant in their pre-mortal days, a lower class. I wonder what future prophet will become enlightened as to the fact that all are equal in the eyes of a just creator? Who or whatever that may be.

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Posted by: Some Young Guy ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 12:28AM


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Posted by: Emma's Flaming Sword ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 12:41AM

The church is not just some kooky cult with wacky beliefs, their beliefs actually destroy lives. I worry about my gay BIL. He is so tormented trying to be gay and Mormon. What wasted anguish.

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Posted by: m3gd ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 01:11AM

I hate the fact that gay people are made to believe that they are somehow deviant, broken or sinners because of their sexual orientation. It is wrong to say or do things that insinuate they are at odds with God because of orientation.

At the same time I do believe that certain acts are sinful in God's eyes. God loves us no matter what- our sins have been paid for already. But He wants us to be WILLING to lay our lives down at His feet and do His will as best we can. I believe that acting on our sexual urges outside of marriage is sin.

I am recently divorced- mainly because I left the lds church about 18 months ago. We tried to work it out but my ex-wife said one day that she didn't love me the same way since my departure from the lds religion. I will be dating again at some point. And I believe God wants me to refrain from sex until I am married. He wants me to try. If I fail, he wants me to keep trying. He wants my whole heart and I want to get better at giving it to Him.

I believe God wants homosexuals to refrain from sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman- because I believe the Bible spells that out. I know that this really sucks for gay people. That they can never express themselves physically with someone who they are naturally attracted to. And I do not believe that God will fix them- because they don't need fixing. That is the way they are. But He still wants us to refrain from what He calls sin as best we can.

I believe God stands willing to see each of us as perfect people every day of our lives- perfect only because Jesus paid for our sins and stands vicariously in our place to satisfy the demands of total cleanliness required by God. But how can Christ do this if we remain unbroken in our hearts and refuse to call sin what it is...sin. He loves saving sinners and that would include ALL of us. Gay, straight, Bi- whatever. He can give us what we are looking for but we have to be WILLING to let go of sinful behavior.

I hope I have come across as intended. I mean no offense.

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Posted by: nonamekid ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 01:17AM

Your God is a sadistic bastard.

And you are as bad as Packer.

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Posted by: m3gd ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 01:21AM

@ nonamekid

I am as bad as Packer. Interesting. Please explain. Are you an Atheist by chance?

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Posted by: nonamekid ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 01:28AM

You believe that even though gays cannot change, they cannot get married and cannot have sex outside of marriage. So you would condemn them to a life of involuntary celibacy. Yes, you are as bad as Packer.

as to my religious beliefs, let's just say I wouldn't worship your God.

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Posted by: m3gd ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 01:41AM

I am a Christian. I believe in God and I believe he wants us to to free, at peace and enjoy life. I am honestly conflicted about the idea that God says that gay people can never act on their in-born sexual desires.

I also believe that God wants all straight people to wait to have sex until married. But lots of us don't. Does God toss us off to the side and condemn us to hell? Nope. But he doesn't really want us to go around having sex and never feeling like it is sinful. So where is the middle ground? I think he stands ready to forgive us of everything he calls sin when we are at least willing to try to refrain from it. If we aren't willing then he's not as willing to forgive...until we are willing.

So I guess that I am saying that God wants anyone who never gets married to refrain from having sex and live a celibate life. If we screw up- he wants us to keep trying. I believe he expects the same thing for homosexuals. I am sorry if that sounds harsh but I don't know how else to see it without putting my faith in God completely to the side.

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Posted by: Ms. ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 01:56AM

That's what gives Christians a nasty name. Religion, as you describe it, is evil. God as you describe him, is evil.

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Posted by: nonamekid ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 02:01AM

You think that a gay people must spend their entire life celibate. That is what BKP and LD$, Inc. think. At least BKP gives them the (false) hope that they can change. You don't even give them that.

Your God creates gays and then denies them a very basic part of themselves. He really is a sadistic bastard.

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Posted by: m3gd ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 02:22AM

I part ways with the lds church leaders when they say that homosexuality is unnatural and not in-born. It's not someone's fault that they are gay- that's just the way they came into this world. I would never tell someone they chose it.

But people come down with varying sex drives as well. Does God say that those of us with in-born high sex drives can go and have sex before marriage and those with lower sex drive cannot? Of course not. He expects US to conform to HIS rules at some point. He doesn't make us feel like a dungheap because we fall short time and again- he gave us a way to be forgiven all along the way while we get better at giving up what WE want for what HE wants. But if we are never willing to admit that what we want is sinful (when it is clear that it is) then we have no promise of redemption.

I believe there are rules. And we don't like a lot of them. But we either submit or rebel- and He allows us that freedom.

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Posted by: imaworkinonit ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 01:56PM

m3gd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I part ways with the lds church leaders when they
> say that homosexuality is unnatural and not
> in-born. It's not someone's fault that they are
> gay- that's just the way they came into this
> world. I would never tell someone they chose it.
>
Of course not. We are in agreement here.

> But people come down with varying sex drives as
> well. Does God say that those of us with in-born
> high sex drives can go and have sex before
> marriage and those with lower sex drive cannot?

God doesn't say ANYTHING, actually.

> Of course not. He expects US to conform to HIS
> rules at some point. He doesn't make us feel like
> a dungheap because we fall short time and again-
> he gave us a way to be forgiven all along the way
> while we get better at giving up what WE want for
> what HE wants. But if we are never willing to
> admit that what we want is sinful (when it is
> clear that it is) then we have no promise of
> redemption.

I DO believe that people need to act responsibly, to keep commitments to their spouse and that there are real life consequences for promiscuity.

But here's where I have a problem: How can anyone know what an invisible and absent GOD thinks or wants? HE'S NOT AROUND TO SPEAK FOR HIMSELF. No one can even prove He exists. It's always some preacher or somebody who speaks FOR Him, the most powerful being in the universe who remains strangely silent. An appeal to God as a moral authority just doesn't work for me, if no one can show that he even exists or he can't clarify his own opinion on the issues. He just doesn't count. And if we want to speak of Him as a moral authority, how can we ignore the atrocities committed in HIS name in the Old Testament?

What sense does it make for someone to consign themselves to a life of loneliness to please this absent being? What is accomplished by living a lonely and miserable life? Why would the opinion of an ancient GOD override the wants and needs of a living, breathing human being?

> I believe there are rules. And we don't like a
> lot of them. But we either submit or rebel- and
> He allows us that freedom.

Of COURSE He ALLOWS us freedom. He isn't around NOT to.

I think the core issue here is who is making the "rules". The Bible was written by human beings, NOT by the hand of God. (It's not even written first hand, as in "I, God, created the earth". We don't even KNOW who wrote Genesis). Believing the Bible is trusting that some anonymous human wrote the truth.

Believing the Bible is trusting the word of MAN, who claims to speak for God. One of the oldest stories on the planet.

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Posted by: m3gd ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 06:26PM

I appreciate your thought filled reply. I believe in God. But I readily admit that I don't know that he exists. But to me, there is plenty of evidence that he does. The order of the universe, the organization of this planet and all its species etc. I believe that the men who wrote the New Testament were telling the truth. Others do not. I take the Old Testament with a huge grain of salt and admit that you have to read all scripture with an understanding that some of it is cultural opinion of the times and some of it accurately portrays God's will. I have chosen this belief for myself and I force it on no one.

My beliefs do affect the way I vote and feel about political issues. I am not going to vote for something that violates what God has said on the subject. Any sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman has never been okay with God.

It sounds to me like most everybody on this board is agnostic or atheist. If so- I can see why you hold my beliefs in contempt. The only way to get people like me (Christians) to change their mind about homosexual sex, pre-marital sex, bisexual sex and any other "out of wed-lock sex" is to get us to disbelieve in God. That's what it would take. So I guess things will remain at a stand-off for a long time because Christians are as passionate about their faith in God as your are about believing against him.

Would you also admit that you don't "know" that God does not exist? Just curious.

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Posted by: matt ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 06:39PM

m3gd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I part ways with the lds church leaders when they
> say that homosexuality is unnatural and not
> in-born. It's not someone's fault that they are
> gay- that's just the way they came into this
> world. I would never tell someone they chose it.
>
> But people come down with varying sex drives as
> well. Does God say that those of us with in-born
> high sex drives can go and have sex before
> marriage and those with lower sex drive cannot?
> Of course not. He expects US to conform to HIS
> rules at some point. He doesn't make us feel like
> a dungheap because we fall short time and again-
> he gave us a way to be forgiven all along the way
> while we get better at giving up what WE want for
> what HE wants. But if we are never willing to
> admit that what we want is sinful (when it is
> clear that it is) then we have no promise of
> redemption.
>
> I believe there are rules. And we don't like a
> lot of them. But we either submit or rebel- and
> He allows us that freedom.

OK. So, God made people who feel attracted to people of their own sex. And THEN God said: "But don't have sex with them!"

Who do you think God would do that?

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Posted by: m3gd ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 02:13AM

So do you believe in God? If you don't then we probably won't ever agree that there are certain rules that we are taught to follow. We don't have to follow them and I respect your right to do what you want. But I also get to decide for myself what I think is sin and what I don't think is sin. Just like you.

So do you believe that has some rules with regard to sex that he expects us to follow and that he can be a loving God at the same time? Or does he have to let us all do what we want with regard to sex before and during marriage to be considered "loving"? I am asking sincerely.

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Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 02:19AM

A God that makes people with a certain sexual orientation, and then forbids them to act on it is not a loving God. A loving God would not put his creations into that kind of a double bind. If a truly loving God made homosexuals and didn't want them to have extra-marital sex, he would allow them to get married. A God who demands the one without allowing the other is indeed evil.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2010 02:20AM by D. P. Gumby.

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Posted by: m3gd ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 02:28AM

God does not make us. Our parents do. Our DNA comes from them as I am sure you know. But we come into a fallen world- where injustices abound. Some babies suffer and die in a week. Does that make God evil as well?

God also allows for babies to be killed and innocent people to dies in car crashes and tsunamis. Does that make him evil?

I know we will not agree on this issue because we start from different premises. I am happy to agree to disagree.

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Posted by: SLDrone ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 09:46AM

Perhaps the solution to your conundrum is to allow gay people to marry. Only then could it be possible to temper your religious views with mercy.

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Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 05:35PM

>God does not make us. Our parents do.

So do you deny that we are created by God?

If so, by what authority is God God? Was he elected or appointed? By whom? Or is he just a cosmic usurper? If we are not created by God, why then should we feel the need to obey his laws? It would seem that if you are correct then God simply has no claim to the authority to give commandments regarding anything. It also seems most likely that what you refer to as the laws of God are really just the biases of men.

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Posted by: m3gd ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 06:32PM

My point was that God made Adam and Eve but he doesn't personally come down and make us himself. He doesn't make some babies with cleft pallets and missing limbs and he does not "make" babies with homosexual leanings. The things I just mentioned just happen as a matter of being born into this world.

As far as who made God, God? I don't know. But I believe in a great Creator. I also believe that God is loving but at the same time is demanding. Can those things co-exist in your view?

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Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 06:35PM

A God who allows his creations to be born gay, but then demands that they deny a fundamental part of their lives is not loving.

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Posted by: Heathjh ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 12:55PM

M3gd, tell me where in the New Testament does Jesus preach against homosexuality?

You can't quote the Old Testament in this situation otherwise there is a whole lot of things you personally would be doing equally as wrong. There are a lot of ludicrous things said in the OT.

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Posted by: Verdacht ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 11:22PM

nonamekid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your God is a sadistic bastard.
>
> And you are as bad as Packer.

Now there's a positive step toward understanding someone.
What he said was no where near what Boyd Packer said. In fact he stated pretty much the opposite.

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Posted by: vhainya ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 01:12AM

who just can't reconcile their beliefs with their child coming out as gay. 95% of the time they choose their religion and bigotry over loving and supporting their child. It is so tragic and sad for these individuals and their families. How wonderful it would be for the church to allow gays to marry in the temple. I don't see them ever doing it but it would be special if they did.

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Posted by: mick ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 01:27AM

OK maybe crazy is not the right word. Crazy would imply that there is no logic to it. There's logic to it. As f--ked up as it is, there's logic in their minds.

This just reminds me of some of the stuff my dad would say to us kids when I was growing up. Like the church take priority over everything else. He was going to force us to be good, and we were all getting into the CK, even if it meant dragging us kicking and screaming. A clear contradiction with church doctrine, because that was Satan's plan? That he would turn us in if we ever broke the law, etc. I'd never turn my kids in, no matter what they did.

I wonder how my dad thinks now that three out of four kids have nothing to do with the church?

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Posted by: vhainya ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 11:33AM

The church teaches bigotry and intolerance, one reason I left.

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Posted by: npangel ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 10:34AM

My brother is homosexual. The best guy you would ever be glad to call your friend.No one "wants" to be gay vs heterosexual. Forget religion. It's about spirituality. You can be Christian and be gay. The government should legalize gay marriage so it is legal and binding whether a "church" recognizes it or not.

I respect men who acknowledge their homosexuality rather than closet gays who don't have the balls/spine to "own Up".I know of a man in Charlotte, NC in his 40's who served a mission and solicited gay sex at truck stops. He "was turned" and convinced a woman (who is not all there mentally) to marry him. They have two kids. Don't you think he's not still doing the same thing behind her back. Yes, he has a temple recommend. Go figure. So much for the priesthood providing any "spiritual guidance" Uh??? It's jsut a matter of time he brings HIV home to her.

My brother tells me of the men who fly into Atlanta with no wedding ring on, (But the line is there) and solicit gay sex. How many faithful" Christian" men "cheat" on their loving wives while she is "playing house" back home...

So ,if it is legalized, hopefully religions will acknowledge it. Weird how Utah finally did away "legally" with polygamy once the national law could bring legal action against it.

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Posted by: Anon ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 02:48PM

If "The natural man is an enemy to God." then it is the job of God's soldiers to fight that enemy -- the natural man. Therefore, we were not made to find and be our "true selves", instead we were made to be changed from the natural person that we are, to what God (i.e. Mormonism) says we must become. It's a variation of original sin.

No matter who you were "born to be", it is actually the change to obedience and conformity that is God's design for you. And God's soldiers (the priesthood holders) are here to change you. If you insist on being the "natural you" -- that is "the natural man" -- by definition you are the church's enemy! You are God's enemy!

In Utah, male suicides between 18 and 35 have been reported to be the highest in the nation. If young men truly do have the "choice" of being gay or straight, why is it that in Utah they so often choose a third obtion: being dead!

Listen to N. Eldon Tanner's words from the "Ensign" many years ago. Training (changing) children is like traing hunting dogs...


"It is an interesting thing when we are training animals, we expect those animals to do exactly what they are told, and we will spend hours, we will spend days, and we will spend weeks, and we will spend months training a hunting dog or a sheep dog or a horse; and they do the same in a circus with their circus animals. Those men who are acrobats in a circus spend months and years in preparing to do those things that are necessary, using all the laws and obeying those laws to accomplish what they wish to do.

This is true with anything in life. But we are prepared to spend that time and give rewards to our animals when they do right and punish them otherwise, and if they won’t do what we tell them and we can’t train them, we dispose of them. How much more important that we take time to train our children to do what is right, and ourselves as children of God, to do what is right, and to be sure we are where we should be when we should be, doing the things we should be doing in keeping the commandments of God, being obedient in every way. As we do this, we can gain eternal life. How true this is!"

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 03:05PM

my question for mpd3 or whatever your moniker is (I have no respect for you so I won't go back and check it out) and anon

Are you gay? Do you know anyone gay?

IF THERE IS ANYONE WHO COULD HAVE A BONE TO PICK WITH GAYS--IT WOULD BE MY CHILDREN AND I--I love my "ex" and he is off with his new boyfriend this weekend and I'm SO EXCITED he finally found someone. People are still shocked when they hear me say those things.

My ex is GAY--he deserves to be loved and be in a loving relationship as much as YOU OR I DO.

It makes me physically ill to hear your arguments. I was as TBM as anyone. I used to believe in the bible, too--and it was Christains on this board who convinced me the bible is not written by God--if there is one.

Why, mp3d whatever, do you think you have more rights than gays? Why should you be able to marry and have sex, but they can't? Bullsh*t!

Wait until one of your children comes out gay--or your spouse, or your sibling, or your parent. Or you'll be like the 95% someone else was talking about--throwing the gay members of your family under the bus. I'd tend to believe if there is a God--he would EXPECT that you love your family member over some manmade religion.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 03:06PM

And, thank you, SLDrone--I've read this story of your's before--and I love it. Can I share it with Emily Pearson--see if she'll post it on her blog or the blog she has for ex-wives of gay mormons?

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Posted by: matt ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 06:41PM

I hope he is OK, Thanks for posting this, SLDrone.

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Posted by: imaworkinonit ( )
Date: October 17, 2010 06:57PM

as to the existence of God, and then they can make their best guess as to what their God expects. They can choose the values by which to live their own lives. But they shouldn't get to decide how OTHER people live THEIR lives.

The role of government is to decide what is legal and what is not, NOT to decide what SIN is.

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