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Posted by: eddie ( )
Date: September 19, 2010 11:29AM

Some evidence the early saints were very gullible:


The witnesses should not have been gullible people that believed in things like 'second sight', divining rods, finding treasure by placing a rock in a hat, etc. That the Three Witnesses were a gullible sort is illustrated by an incident in July, 1837. Joseph had left on a five-week missionary tour to Canada, only to find on his return that all three of the Witnesses had joined a faction opposing him. This faction rallied around a young girl who claimed to be a seeress by virtue of a black stone in which she read the future. David Whitmer, Martin Harris, and Oliver Cowdery all pledged her their loyalty, and Frederick G. Williams, formerly Joseph's First Counselor, became her scribe. The girl seeress would dance herself into a state of exhaustion, fall to the floor, and burst forth with revelations. (See Lucy Smith: Biographical Sketches, pp. 211-213).

Martin Harris was anything but a skeptical witness. He was known by many of his peers as an unstable, gullible and superstitious man. Reports assert that he and the other witnesses never literally saw the gold plates, but only an object said to be the plates, covered with a cloth. Here's some accounts that show the superstitious side of Martin Harris:

Ronald W. Walker, "Martin Harris: Mormonism's Early Convert," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 19 (Winter 1986): 34-35. "Once while reading scripture, he reportedly mistook a candle's sputtering as a sign that the devil desired him to stop. Another time he excitedly awoke from his sleep believing that a creature as large as a dog had been upon his chest, though a nearby associate could find nothing to confirm his fears. Several hostile and perhaps unreliable accounts told of visionary experiences with Satan and Christ, Harris once reporting that Christ had been poised on a roof beam."

John A. Clark letter, August 31, 1840 in EMD, 2: 271: "No matter where he went, he saw visions and supernatural appearances all around him. He told a gentleman in Palmyra, after one of his excursions to Pennsylvania, while the translation of the Book of Mormon was going on, that on the way he met the Lord Jesus Christ, who walked along by the side of him in the shape of a deer for two or three miles, talking with him as familiarly as one man talks with another." According to two Ohio newspapers, shortly after Harris arrived in Kirtland he began claiming to have "seen Jesus Christ and that he is the handsomest man he ever did see. He has also seen the Devil, whom he described as a very sleek haired fellow with four feet, and a head like that of a Jack-ass." Vogel,EMD 2: 271, note 32.

The Reverend John A. Clark, who knew Harris, said Martin “had always been a firm believer in dreams, and visions and supernatural appearances, such as apparitions and ghosts, and therefore was a fit subject for such men as Smith and his colleagues to operate on.” Lorenzo Saunders said Harris was a “great man for seeing spooks.” Presbyterian minister Jesse Townsend of Palmyra called Harris a “visionary fanatic.”

The accounts of Martin Harris that are never talked about at church should be also be taken into consideration when evaluating just how much stock we should put into the testimony of Harris regarding his testimony of the angel and the gold plates. Harris was gullible enough to believe Smith when told that if he were to look upon the plates, God would strike him dead. Harris was a perfect target for any con man.


The field David [Whitmer] plowed

David plowed a field in less time than it normally took him and jumped to the conclusion that it was a sign from God, a miracle. His father planted the suggestion that "there must be an overruling hand in this" so David immediately concluded that there must be a supernatural explanation to his rapid work – the only other explanation David or his father could think of. This is odd and disturbing on many levels since David plowed the field himself. He based his supernatural explanation on nothing other than the time he spent working in the field vs the time he remembers he did it in the past - and his father suggesting an unworldly explanation. Those familiar with statistics call that superstitious practice, counting the hits and ignoring the misses. Church leaders like to tell this story with an air of objectivity, though none is present.

Of course there are plenty more plausible explanations. He was likely excited about the trip he was going to make, to actually meet the prophet, and so he worked faster than normal. There are many other variables which can't be examined such as the density of his crops that year, how much help his father was to him, when he started, how good of a job he did this year compared to other years, how much time it actually took him to do it in prior years vs how much time he remembered that it took, etc.

http://www.mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm


Many modern day Mormons are of the same persuasion. There are numerous people in my ward and stake who will believe virtually anything. The constant pressure within Mormonism to believe and defend the unbelievable seems to stunt the development of critical thinking.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 19, 2010 11:58AM

What we would have believed and accepted if we lived in the early 1800's ?? Probably exactly the same thing other people did.

Perhaps, well educated human beings are not as gullible today, but sometimes I wonder.:-)

I know many people who are not LDS and they are just as gullible as anyone else.

Just look at the thousands of emails that go around that are photo shopped, total baloney, nonsense, lies, made up stories? snopes and urban legands are kept busy 24/7 discounting them!

Developing the skill of a skeptic is not something people commonly do!

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: September 19, 2010 12:04PM

As are present day TBMs.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: September 19, 2010 12:04PM


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Posted by: PtLoma ( )
Date: September 19, 2010 12:30PM

...nearly month one sees news articles about yet another multimillion dollar Ponzi scheme, perpetrated by a TBM who exploits his fellow TBM members and bilks their life savings. All caution is thrown to the wind if the promoter is an active church member with prominent ward or stake callings.

These vermin could not thrive without a pool of gullible members. If a NONMEMBER financial promoter approached them with a similar deal, they might ask questions and protect themselves from exploitation. Church members are conditioned to distrust outsiders but to trust (implicitly) church leaders. The same skepticism shown to outsiders evaporates when the promoter in question sends them a Christmas card of his grandchildren in front of a temple (a $75 million rip off in California featured a member of a Stake High Council and he sent such Christmas cards to his victims).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2010 12:33PM by PtLoma.

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Posted by: Heresy ( )
Date: September 19, 2010 12:38PM

I share their genes.

I'd like to think my ancestors were desperate and misinformed, but I'm sure many were just gullible.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2010 12:39PM by Heresy.

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Posted by: eloher ( )
Date: September 19, 2010 12:55PM

The gullibility of the people to believe in such weirdness was commonplace back then. People believed in witchcraft, dowsers, treasure-hunters, spirits, and all kinds of hokey pokey stuff.

The religious revival period of the time played on those beliefs that ran rampant among people back then. They capitalized on peoples' naivete. Joseph Smith was smart to see the opportunity and seize it while he could.He certainly wasn't alone in exploiting the people.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 19, 2010 12:59PM

eloher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The gullibility of the people to believe in such
> weirdness was commonplace back then. People
> believed in witchcraft, dowsers, treasure-hunters,
> spirits, and all kinds of hokey pokey stuff.
>
>


I know people today that still believe in the same things you listed. It has not gone away. Just practiced a little differently.

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Posted by: Heresy ( )
Date: September 19, 2010 02:01PM

eloher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The gullibility of the people to believe in such
> weirdness was commonplace back then. People
> believed in witchcraft, dowsers, treasure-hunters,
> spirits, and all kinds of hokey pokey stuff.
>

I wonder about that. I don't know if there is any way to find out, but I suspect that people back then were very familiar with the scams that were brought about by following superstitions.

They had a very narrow margin of financial safety without social programs, and I actually suspect they were far more careful with their few resources than many today.

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Posted by: eddie ( )
Date: September 19, 2010 04:56PM

...even when compared to their contemporaries. I agree that people today are generally not critical thinkers nor were people in the early- to mid-1800s. The following quotes are from those who knew the early saints.

John A. Clark letter, August 31, 1840 in EMD, 2: 271: "No matter where he went, he saw visions and supernatural appearances all around him. He told a gentleman in Palmyra, after one of his excursions to Pennsylvania, while the translation of the Book of Mormon was going on, that on the way he met the Lord Jesus Christ, who walked along by the side of him in the shape of a deer for two or three miles, talking with him as familiarly as one man talks with another." According to two Ohio newspapers, shortly after Harris arrived in Kirtland he began claiming to have "seen Jesus Christ and that he is the handsomest man he ever did see. He has also seen the Devil, whom he described as a very sleek haired fellow with four feet, and a head like that of a Jack-ass." Vogel,EMD 2: 271, note 32.

The Reverend John A. Clark, who knew Harris, said Martin “had always been a firm believer in dreams, and visions and supernatural appearances, such as apparitions and ghosts, and therefore was a fit subject for such men as Smith and his colleagues to operate on.” Lorenzo Saunders said Harris was a “great man for seeing spooks.” Presbyterian minister Jesse Townsend of Palmyra called Harris a “visionary fanatic.”

Reference: http://www.irr.org/mit/first-vision/1827b-account.html

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 19, 2010 01:01PM

It was common in the farming area where we lived in the 40's.I remember following him around watching how it worked. One time he found water, another time he didn't.

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Posted by: Uncle Max ( )
Date: September 19, 2010 01:37PM

The locals with brains gave Joe and his weird scam a wide berth.

That and there were a lot of emigrants who didn't find out the whole truth until they got to Utah - when it was too late to back out.

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Posted by: Tuatha ( )
Date: September 19, 2010 02:59PM

As a matter of fact, all humans are gullible until they learn by experience or education to be more critical. This is likely an evolutionary benefit since children must trust their caretakers in order to survive.

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Posted by: munchybotaz ( )
Date: September 19, 2010 04:23PM

The way I read the stories, at least two of my great grandfathers were huge suckers who dragged their wives and families along in pursuing their fantasies.

Great-Great-Gullible Grandpa Eric G.M. Hogan was doing fine in Norway, but fell for stories about doing better in America. He bullied his wife into accompanying him by threatening to divide up the children. Upon arriving, after losing $200 in a shady-sounding shallow-water boat accident, he fell for Mormonism. He gave his only horse to Heber C. Kimball to take west, and then traded his house in Iowa for one in Salt Lake that wasn't there.

Great-Great-Great-Gullible Grandpa John Nye "took advantage of [British] government-assisted emigration" (read: getting rid of the riff-raff) and went to look for gold in Australia, but found Mormonism instead. After a series of misadventures ending in Utah, his wife Charlotte decided she'd had enough and divorced him.

His son Stephen continued the hard-luck Charlie tradition by starting a lumber business with David Eccles, but losing his leg in a logging accident and not becoming the richest man in Utah. He was the only one of my three great-great grandfathers who had multiple wives and were still living at the time to be jailed for polygamy.

A few of my relatives on the Nye side were and are super smart. I'm guessing those genes must have come from Grandma Charlotte.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2010 04:47PM by munchybotaz.

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Posted by: Zeezromp ( )
Date: September 19, 2010 04:38PM

Finds out about Polygamy around two years later! Two years it was hidden from her but she continues.

Then sometime later loses her life savings most likely to her Branch President because she thought she could trust him. He stole members Tithes and Offerings for sure(this part she managed to cough up to me).

Gets sucked into Amway for sometime. Goes through the Temple at age 29 approx and actually sniggers in the ceremony.BUT still not sussed it out.

Then serves a mission at age 35! Still not learned.

At the time, the purpose of her mission was seemingly to find me! The Golden Investigator.

I mention the head in a hat and she says 'Whaaat I never heard that, where are you getting these so called facts from'!

Claims her BYU educated friend has never heard of Richard Bushman! lol hahahahahahhaha


Its absolutely and utterly completely ridiculous.
And she shuns me?!?!

And even more ridiculous, She thinks her Bishop speaks Gods voice to her. She will trust him over her own thoughts.

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Posted by: mtnmdwcookiemonster ( )
Date: September 19, 2010 11:07PM

"The constant pressure within Mormonism to believe and defend the unbelievable seems to stunt the development of critical thinking."

So true. I can't get my dad or brother to understand that scientists are actually the most objective. My whole family thinks scientists just ignore information that proves the church is true, or at least highly indicates that. They can not comprehend peer review or that there really are people out there who are smart and not Mormon.

When I was a kid, I was surprised at what they would ignore, but I was also brainwashed. I just can't understand how people can grow to adults and still buy the lie.

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