Eleven years ago, I was having lunch with a very close TBM friend. I had recently concluded that the whole LDS spectrum of truth-claims was completely false. This friend and I would get together and discuss the more radical deep doctrines and the odd historical quirks that most members were unaware of. He did not know that I had recently lost my faith.

The conversation turned to spiritual truths that were given to those who dig deep and ponder etc.. I mentioned that I thought these events were more like confirmation bias than actual truth insights, and he started to ask questions about my testimony in general. He eventually asked if I believed in the LDS faith at all or in God or Christ. I told him that I no longer believed any of it.

I was watching his face as I admitted my disbelief, and his facial expression shifted dramatically. He suddenly saw me, his closest friend, in a new way. I was stunned by the shift in his facial expression.

He later wrote me a letter and said that he saw the spirit leave my countenance and was concerned that I had left myself vulnerable to Satan's will. He made a specific point of "seeing the spirit leave me" during our conversation.

My point of re-telling this is to explore this pattern of TBM's claiming to see the lack of the spirit in those who have abandoned their belief. I have continued to attend church and nobody ever mentions to me that they can tell that the spirit is not in my countenance. BUT, every time I tell some specific person that I no longer believe, it is at that point that they see me differently.

IT IS THEY WHO HAVE CHANGED, NOT I.

The fact that they take this paradigm shift as evidence that they notice the spirit is suddenly absent from my countenance is an interesting phenomenon. THEIR countenance changes. THEIR perception of my spiritual status is what changes. It should be obvious, but new information is always the catalyst for paradigm shifts, and TBM's cannot tell the difference between a paradigm shift and a spiritual insight.

And the ultimate irony is that the change they are perceiving in another person is really an internal change they just went through themselves.

Motes and Beams.

I would have responded with: I see that cliches have not left yours.

This is a fascinating insight (which is new to me) that I'm going to be thinking about today...

...not just on a personal level, but on a writing level, too.

Thank you!!! :)

I think what happens is that when they realise they are talking to an apostate, the sh!t leaves their bowels. They confuse that with the spirit leaving your countenance.

On a more serious note.

I do think what they mention does actually have some element of fact behind it.

When a person who has left the church has to tell a TBM that they no longer believe, they typically do so with hesitation, and with a certain trepidation. That automatically changes how you present yourself to the TBM.

So your countenance probably does change. They then conclude it the spirit leaving. They can't possibly conclude that the person telling them they no longer believe is concerned you are a judgmental prick, so I need to choose my words very carefully, and present a more cautious persona to you until I see how you react.

Yup...

This is an accurate assessment too.

Yes, I agree that they could also be seeing something different in us when we address disbelief. But my recollection was that I was filled with enthusiasm for my recent discoveries, which would not come across as hesitant or uncomfortable. This is a guy who had a host of radical theories that bordered on disbelief and I thought he would be at least interested in the information. When he realized that I had gone over the edge of doubt into open denial, he was visibly shocked. His shock certainly caused my facial expression to shift as well, and all of this happens so fast that he might see my facial shift as the "loss" you are referring to, even though it is a reaction to his shift. Good point.

But then forever after that point, they cannot see you as someone who "has the light" in their countenance, while others continue to see that light in you.

scotslander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think what happens is that when they realise
> they are talking to an apostate, the sh!t leaves
> their bowels. They confuse that with the spirit
> leaving your countenance.

Haaaaahaaaahaaahaaaa! Haahahahaa!

Tell them your bull shit detector ring is going off.

They don't know crap, they are not clairvoyant.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2015 12:40PM by saucie.

But...you had already decided none of it was true long before having this conversation. Why is it, then, that the TBM didn't notice the "light leaving your countenance" at the very beginning of the meeting, before you said anything? If there was any "spirit" or "light," it was long gone before you sat down -- yet this TBM didn't "discern" anything until you told them you no longer believed. Which clearly demonstrates that they weren't reacting to any "spirit" or "light" being gone (it didn't leave right then, it was already long gone) -- but just to your words, and that as others have pointed out, the reaction was in THEM, not you.

Exactly, Hie,

And, they are scared crapless. They respected and valued your opinion. What are they to do now but shoot the messenger of facts and logic?

I know of an instance where a mother said that to her teenage son. It's a defence mechanism of parroting out something they think makes them sound smart, like a scriptorian, or GA. (Their definition of smart.)

It sounds more polite than screaming and yelling that you're possessed by the devil, as they run away and hide behind Jesus, or mommy.

saul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> He later wrote me a letter and said that he saw
> the spirit leave my countenance and was concerned
> that I had left myself vulnerable to Satan's will.
> He made a specific point of "seeing the spirit
> leave me" during our conversation.

He saw this during the conversation when you TOLD him you no
longer believed. But you had stopped believing long ago. He
didn't see the "spirit leave your countenance" back when you
didn't believe but hadn't told him yet.

Therefore what he saw was entirely in HIS perception, and not
in your "countenance." This is an excellent example of the way
TBMs cannot look rationally at the world. They have to filter
everything to fit their preconceived notions.

I don't know how they could possibly see anything with their heads buried so deep in the sand. Give them a card that says MormonThink.com, and it will prove they cannot see anything. They aren't capable of reading the card. Blind as bats.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2015 12:48PM by madalice.

That is interesting. Once I was finally on the other side, my demeanor changed fairly substantially.

In fact, when visiting my super TBM father he commented on how much more at peace I seemed. He followed up with he had never seen me happier.

He asked me what had happened.

I told him- I finally realized the lies and left.
That led to a 4 hour discussion about religion, and he has not bothered me one bit about it since.

Yeah, interesting how that works. I was a closet non-believer who faked it for several years. No one knew any different. By all intents and purposes I was an apostate but I showed up at church and put on my appearances. Everyone enjoyed my "spirit" and "countenance" then even though they should not have.

When they are faced with someone who leaves because they discover the truth, they naturally dehumanize that person. Otherwise, they'd have to admit to themselves that someone intelligent and rational figured it out, and maybe they'd have to do some self reflection. We left about a year ago and the positive change in my wife has been dramatic. She is so much more happy and vibrant now that she is free from the yoke of The cult, it is amazing. Even her ultra TBM parents notice the positive changes.

No one, not one single mormon from the bottom to the top could line up 100 random humans and accurately select the mormons out of the lineup by their lit up countenance...


Such hooey...

I have taught lessons in RS since mentally leaving the church and people were saying how much they could feel the spirit as I taught. They don't have a scrap of discernment between them.

Everything they say is pre-programmed rhetoric. It sounds good but doesn't mean anything.

Me too! We'll having taught RS after having had sex the nite before (I was single)... And I was so spiritual n had such a wonderful spirit about me....must have been the afterglow ;-)

...ooooo!!! How do I give my response. I believe this is actually a true thing; not a bad thing. I've seen women who have left the church lose that "Stepford" wife look and speech. I've seen men become more jovial (loud laughter and all) and talk with feelings without crying and able to carry on conversations on sports, shows, movies that they could never talk about before.

I've also seen anger and frustration cross over mine and other ex-mo eyes and creased brows because we can't get TBM friends/family to stop bearing their testimonies, or to get them to read or listen to the truth. We hate ignorance and lying and so yes, our countenance reflects our feelings at that moment. So at that moment our countenance might show anger, frustration, ridicule and sadness when dealing with TBMs and their nonsense.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2015 06:16PM by dydimus.

Mormons have a special spiritual discernment ability that no
other people have. They can see the spirituality behind the
countenance, behind the appearance. They can see through to the
inner truth of a person's spirit.

http://www.utlm.org/images/newsletters/115/115cover_hofmannchurchleaders.gif



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2015 06:39PM by baura.

I think life in general has the tendency to deflate ones aspirations. I see young people with so much hope. Everyone is going to marry a beauty queen, everyone a CEO. Everyone a millionaire. But after getting kicked in the teeth too many times to count people tend to get tired of it. Mormonism gets old if your not really prosperous/beautiful/rich/successful. Discouragement is natural. Even children have to stop believing in Santa Clause sometime. Christmas is just another day?

Another example of the crazy-mormon-thinking that gets passed from one member in myth-fashion to another, all in the spirit of being the member that is most "in-tune" and can "concern" when someone is on board the righteousness boat.

Wonder how soon these people will take the place of the current phoney Mormon prophet? They certainly know they have the needed qualifications.

:D :D :D

Let me see if I understood you correctly. Your friend saw the spirit leave you during your conversation? So, if that is true, then the spirit was with you at the beginning, yet you were not a believer at the beginning of the conversation. So, was the spirit hanging around until you voiced your non-belief out loud to your friend?
So go back to your friend and why the spirit was still there for all the time leading up to that lunch conversation.

When a TBM claims to see the spirit leave my countenance I reply that I, also, saw logic leave theirs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2015 01:17PM by moose.

TBM's do have something in their eyes. But then, so do crazy people.

That's just the absence of Trust that I once had for you now that I see what you put forward as Truthful. Whatever you see missing is a sadness that you will misrepresent Truth to protect Mormonism.

And, for Pete's sake, who says "countenance" any more???

Forgive a neverMo question, but "light leaving your countenance?" Is that why Mormons are always smiling? Is that the light in the countenance? I've noticed something else in pictures of my TBM family members: if they aren't showing a toothy smile, they'll often at least have a lip-closed wide grin--it looks really forced to me. See that on my brother and niece a lot, but I've seen it in other pictures too. What's up with the grins and smiles?

Have you ever had someone you know not recognize you at first after a haircut? It's really odd so have someone you know look at you like a stranger.

Even after I lost my belief I was still able to say things that made people "feel the spirit" and nobody ever suspected I was exmo. It was a little odd when people sarcastically talked about me being an inactive member.

I agree it is the perspective that changes. It changes the focus of the relationship and causes people to see you under a biased lighting. We are always imputing our own idea of who someone is based on previous memories, and not simply just observing who they really are at the moment.

“No one can tell the difference between a clone and a human. That's because there isn't any difference. The idea of clones being inferior is a filthy lie.” (The House of the Scorpion)