I'm not sure but I think I understand MJ's insistence on pursuing the topic of this

initiative concerning gays. I was living in California when prop.8 was placed on the ballot. As

I was, at the time, around a great many gay people, I could not help but notice a complete absence of

panic or fear within the gay community over the proposition. It hardly made dinner table

conversation. I felt a certain amount of uneasiness as I even heard a few people declare it

a "slam dunk" in favor of gay marriage. Having a few years on most of them and having grown up

in the Mormon church and all too familiar with the rabid dedication they exhibit when trying

to influence government initiatives such as proposition 8 I have learned all to well, that first,

nothing in life is a slam dunk, and very little is beyond the realm of possibility.


That being said, however, Possibility and probability are two different words. The secret, I think,

is to focus on it while it is only a possibility and significantly lower or eradicate the

probability of something so evil ever gaining any momentum or credibility


If history serves, we can see all too many cases of one crackpot attempting to decimate a group

of people and no one believing it could possibly happen. But it did.


This is not a gay issue, it should concern every person because it is actually a human rights

issue. What the man is proposing is the same as a genocide.

I think that with the way the proposal is written the author may well have mental health issues.

matt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think that with the way the proposal is written
> the author may well have mental health issues.


It would not surprise me in the least were such to be the case.

Well, since he uses God, It could just be faith and he is doing what many other people of faith have done.

I won't argue that one at all. There was a certain amount

of disbelief as I read what he was proposing

And defending myself from personal attacks.

I do not think that is "insistence on pursuing the topic of this"

I am sorry that people have a problem with me pointing our something so atrocious and that California's law creation process is allowing this to proceed using the same path as Prop 8 and Prop 22.

Sorry folks, that my calling attention to a law that would have me shot offends your California sensibilities or your beliefs about California.

As for "I was, at the time, around a great many gay people, I could not help but notice a complete absence of panic or fear within the gay community over the proposition." I guess you missed the news about all those protests that happened at Mormon Temples in CA and the rest of the country, eh? Gays will talk very differently around straights, BTW.

BTW You are incorrect on what you said. I was in the minority. I have two children

who are gay and while people may have protested. It obviously wasn't enough. My experience

is not yours. I left the church over prop.8. I'm not debating California.

No one on this thread is attacking you or your feelings.

I did not say anything about you being in a majority or minority, so I was not incorrect there.

The protests came after the passage of Prop 8 so the statements "...while people may have protested. It obviously wasn't enough." is confusing. Of course, if the protest came after the passage, then they could never have been enough to stop passage.

BTW, my experience is that gays do hold back a great deal from straights, particularly straight parents. I remember the day my Mom found my Damron Guide and I was stuck explaining the hanky code to my Mom. It didn't help that I was flagging dark blue left at the time. Gezzz, there are something parents just should not know about their kids.

I don't see were you made any points where I was actually in error.

Okay, got it.

It's a terrible proposition and I hereby promise, as solemnly as I can, to NOT sign the petition, and should it make the ballot, to vote against it.

There!

My point is and was about the STATE OF CALIFORNIA, not you PERSONALLY. If you are taking statements about the STATE OF CALIFORNIA as being a criticism of you personally, you are sadly mistaken.

How on earth did you get "are you trying to talk on behalf of the State of California" out of my personal promise to NOT sign the petition, nor vote for the proposition?

I was playfully letting you know that I am taking a stand in support of Gay rights by stating the above promises.

If this isn't enough, what more do you want from me. Just me...

Why did you think your personal behavior applied to what the State of California does?

MJ Wrote:
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> Why did you think your personal behavior applied
> to what the State of California does?

Because he is a California citizen and voter, and this IS what the Initiative process is about: INDIVIDUAL California citizens CREATING legislation (as an alternative to the California legislature).

You have, several times, conflated the "State of California" (capitalized: the entire government of the state), with the "state of California" (which includes every California resident, citizen, voter).

The Initiative process is about the "state of California" who then CREATES what the "State of California" would (perhaps) otherwise do: the Initiative process CREATES LAW, but it is done (literally!!!) individual California voter...by individual California voter...by individual California voter...by individual California voter (millions of times over).

elderolddog, in his capacity as a registered voter in the state of California, and voting for or against an individual Initiative issue, BECOMES with that vote, the "State of California" (capitalized)...and he is saying that his vote would be totally in agreement with your opinion.

California is made up of a lot of citizens that vote. None of them individually represent California as a whole. Unless an individual is the only one that votes in an election, an individual does not represent or speak for California.

It is only the collective votes of everyone that voted on official elections that represent the State.

So I am still waiting to for an explanation as to why one would think that an individual's actions should be applied to a discussion about the state as a whole.

California isn't up to anything. A deluded, violent, genocidal man is trying to get publicity for himself for unclear reasons.

California's proposition system was part of a huge reform movement in California to give the "people" a voice in a sometimes corrupt process of making laws in California.

Over the last 100 years or so, the California initiative process has become one of the most corrupt aspects of California democracy. It is routinely abused by special interests and is of little use the the average person.

In order to get the 300,000 plus signatures in 90 days that can withstand the scrutiny of the Secretary of State's checks, you must gets some multiple above that. The only groups that are capable of collecting the signatures within 90 days are very wealthy organizations with money to spend. Most organizations that pursue this do so with the direct calculation of how much money they are going to make if the proposition passes (again corruption). Only very well funded groups (like the Mormon Church) put there money into this process for culture war issues.

Even if this were to make it on the ballot, it would not pass...in Mississippi. The most conservative bastions of the our reddest states would only be able to rustle up small minority support for something this outrageous. For example, the initiate to fire all gay teachers in California failed back when Reagan was governor and the state was a whole lot more conservative.

On principal, I don't sign any California proposition proposals. I would however support a proposition that banned any further propositions. That would be something I can get behind.

The legal process of passing a California law has started. The state of California is in the process that can lead to the passing of the law. Yes, California is engaged in the process, BY LAW. The article posted makes it clear that the state likely will not be able to stop the process, so the state is actually in the process.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2015 01:25AM by MJ.

I think you are purposely misstating the facts.

A Californian is trying to start a petition drive that, if successful, would place a proposition on the ballot. California is not doing it. No tax money is involved, no state employees are involved in helping to further the scheme.

You are torturing logic in assigning this to California.

I don't know what your purpose is in trying to pin the actions of one or several individuals on California, and I have formed the opinion that you will not address the logic of our responses, other than to deflect and attempt to ridicule. As a form of communication, it suffers by comparison to actually exchanging ideas.

And the state accepted those fees.

That is how the California Process starts. Once the fees are paid and some other conditions are met, California is obligated by law to follow the process. It appears that those conditions have been met, California is in the process.

Nothing made up at all.

MJ...

If this gets on the ballot, please move to California and work against its passage.

I do not think it has any possibility of passing (nor, if it did, then passing judicial review...all the way up to the US Supreme Court), but that's my opinion.

If you feel differently, become a legal California resident and register to vote so you can vote against it.

This is the very best thing you can do to make sure that this never actually becomes law.

No thanks, I would rather stay in Utah where it would be safer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2015 01:51AM by MJ.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The legal process of passing a California law has
> started. The state of California is in the process
> that can lead to the passing of the law. Yes,
> California is engaged in the process, BY LAW. The
> article posted makes it clear that the state
> likely will not be able to stop the process, so
> the state is actually in the process.

At this point, the State of California (capitalized, meaning: the state government of the State of California), is basically in a mandated clerical capacity: writing the legalese so that it is legally correct and the measure can, if it qualifies, go on to some future ballot.

"is basically in a mandated clerical capacity: writing the legalese so that it is legally correct and the measure can, if it qualifies, go on to some future ballot." is all, as you say, mandated. The fact that clerical issues are part of the process does not negate that cALIFORNIA is now in the process that can lead to passing the law. The fact that it is mandated at this point clearly means it is in the mandated process.

Thanks for confirming that cALIFORNIA is in the process of passing a bill to kill gays.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2015 02:03AM by MJ.

Anyone with $200 and a dream can start a ballot initiative in California.

California participates in this process in the same way they participate in drunk driving by providing the roads used by the drunks. California is complicit in all deaths by drunk drivers due to their stubborn refusal to demolish all public roads.

Yes, it is about California and its election processes.

The fact that a person you consider a crackpot may possibly get such a thing on the ballot is a condemnation of the political process.

All I know is that as a California resident and registered voter, I refuse to sign any political petition, and should this somehow get on the ballot, I'll not only vote against it, but I'll participate in the No on it campaign.

That is fine and great. But your actions do not represent the state. There were many people that did not sign the petition or vote for prop 8, yet it was still passed into law via the same legal process.

The anti-gay Prop 8 and the anti-gay California Constitutional amendment that were approved by the voters in that state were both found to be un-Constitutional and are now considered null and void. Anyone who thinks that a law requiring the execution of gays would withstand Constitutional scrutiny, when both a law and Constitutional amendment prohibiting gay marriage were rejected by the Courts, is not looking at this issue rationally.

The man who is trying to get this on the California ballot has to either be deranged or a publicity hound, because the proposed bill has ZERO chance of becoming law. ZERO.

Which does not change the fact that California passed the law.

The fact that Californian passed two unconstitutional law makes California look even worse.

adoylelb,

Your actions do not represent the State of California. However, the actions of the crackpot lawyer, who wrote this proposition do represent the State of California.

None of the rest of us millions of Californians represent California. Our entire state is summed up by the actions of one crackpot writing a proposition that will never pass.

We should all acknowledge that Utah is so much superior to California in every possible way and we should be thankful that we are even allowed to remain part of these United States, given our woeful wretchedness.

(Please read every syllable above dripping with sarcasm).

He started the California PROCESS to enact the law. Once the process starts, California is in the process of passing that law. Thus California is at it again.

I am talking about the California political system and its failures which is not the same as claiming that the crackpot represents California.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2015 01:59AM by MJ.