Just a question for those on this board that believe in free-will. Even if gay people didn't initially choose to be gay, or were born gay, couldn't they choose to be otherwise, if they posessed free-will?


P.S. I don't believe in free-will.

I'm a compatibilist, sort of. We have much less free will than we think, or none, depending on definition. Being gay is not a free-will choice. I think one could, by force of will, choose not to act gay for their entire life, but they'd still be gay. Who would want to live a miserable life like that? Yet as of now, that's what TSCC asks them to do.

Yeah, and all those Down's syndrome kids should just choose to not be Down's. yeah, that might work.

And all those born blind should choose to see.

And if you are born missing a limb, just exercise your free will and hey presto, all limbs restored.

Did you choose to be straight?

Do you know anyone who chose to be gay?

It is not a free will choice.

Any person, regardless of their sexual orientation, can choose their sexual behavior. Sexual behavior does not change sexual orientation. Gay people who are celibate are still gay. Gay people who marry someone of the opposite sex are still gay. Who you are attracted to happens regardless of your will. The fact that behavior is independent of attraction makes straight people who are uncomfortable with gay people insist that gay people choose to be be celibate or marry someone of the opposite sex. That's just mean. Why not allow people to partner with those they are attracted to instead and MYOB?

What a silly question. Is you not having three legs (or so I assume) at odds with you having free will?

Some people HAVE switched, or tried. But why pressure people into pairing up with someone they are not fully attracted to? How miserable is that? And how unfair to your partner too?

Think of it in the reverse.
What if the most accepted type of relationship was homosexual but YOU were heterosexual. Would you be willing to switch to being homosexual just to make other people happy?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2015 06:03PM by seekyr.

People used to force lefties to favor their right hands against their nature. It was cruel and unnecessary, just like forcing gays into a straight-jacket.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2015 06:13PM by axeldc.

People might hate me for this, but I don't believe people are born gay. I think it's partly due to genetics and partly due to your early childhood experiences. This does not mean it's a choice obviously, a young child doesn't have much control over what happens in their lives and they definitely aren't thinking about sexual orientation. By the time they're hitting puberty they can't really control what happened in their past.

There have been huge advances in genetics. Scientists have been able to find the function of many genes, even in non-human species. Just the other day in the news they were saying scientists have successfully put genes from a wolly mammoth into an elephant (it was 14 genes that code for things like smaller ears, more body hair, more fat, etc.). Do people really believe scientists are capable of putting genes from an extinct animal into an elephant, yet aren't capable of finding the gay gene in our own species?

It would be relatively simple to find a gay gene, all you have to do is get the genetic information of a lot of gay people, and find the gene that they all share in common that straight people don't have. But this hasn't happened, this makes me think it's not that simple. There are probably multiple genes which can have an impact on your sexual orientation, but also there'll probably be some gay people which don't have any of those genes, and others which have some of the genes which increase the likelihood of being gay who still end up being straight in adulthood.

Things like adult height, intelligence, personality, susceptibility to dieseases, metabolism, hormone levels, etc. are partially determined by genetics and partially determined by lifestyle/environment. I think sexual orientation could be like this too. This does NOT mean it is a choice, but it also doesn't necessarily mean people are born straight or gay either.

For example, someone who has a height of 5'5'' could have ended up 5'4'' with a poorer diet during childhood or 5'6'' with a better diet during childhood. They weren't born destined to be 5'5'', but at the same time they didn't choose to be 5'5'' either. Their genetics do play a factor, they probably had no chance of growing up to be 6', but to say their height was set in stone at birth would be false, and I think the same can be said of sexual orientation.

Also, to add, I don't think it's a bad thing to be gay. Especially today. I could understand 150,000 years ago when there weren't very many members of our species living and they were scattered around Africa it would have probably been a disappointment if someone was unable to reproduce, but today with our species being so successful, to the point that there are risks of over-population in the future (I think there's about 7 billion of us currently alive!), we could frankly do with more people being gay.

poin0 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also, to add, I don't think it's a bad thing to be
> gay. Especially today. I could understand 150,000
> years ago when there weren't very many members of
> our species living and they were scattered around
> Africa it would have probably been a
> disappointment if someone was unable to reproduce,
> but today with our species being so successful, to
> the point that there are risks of over-population
> in the future (I think there's about 7 billion of
> us currently alive!), we could frankly do with
> more people being gay.

So your genes ordained that you would be straight and your

childhood experiences finalized your straightness? What kind

of childhood experiences were they that made you straight or

gay? Please explain.

Technically you are not entirely wrong. There are genetic factors, the condition of hormones in the womb, as well as hormones as you are going through childhood. But, if I am remembering correctly (and I might not be), it is believed that within the first five or so years of life that sexuality fluctuations happen-for most people (some fluctuate their entire lives or for longer periods of time)-and then you are generally set in your physical attraction. The reason is because it has to do with brain formation. Also, your brain and body can develop along separate path which leads to a transgender identity.
BTW, they have found at least one gene that contributes to homosexuality.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2015 08:10PM by bakagayjin.

If the wash is too early, or too late, it will alter the hormone levels. One cause of this mistiming is if the mother is highly stressed. Also, her own hormones become more sensitized to the androgens of each successive male pregnancy, sometimes causing later born sons to be more effeminate. I see that with my own two sons.

PhELPs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just a question for those on this board that
> believe in free-will. Even if gay people didn't
> initially choose to be gay, or were born gay,
> couldn't they choose to be otherwise, if they
> posessed free-will?
>
>
> P.S. I don't believe in free-will.

Can you choose to be 10 feet tall? Even if free will is real?
Can you choose to be Asian, though born African, even if free will is real?

Get the point?

By the way, it's ironic that you choose to not believe in "free will." Isn't it? :)

100% choice, 100% no choice, 100% don't care. Adults should be free to live and love how they choose.

The whole branch of psychology concerning Irrational Behavior (tied to business and marketing) is about how our so-called choices are engineered for us, with limited options and heavy weighting toward one outcome. For example, opt-in vs. opt-out choices (as in organ donation forms), the Ikea effect, the identified victim effect in charitable giving, etc.

Also, there's the whole dimension of unconscious choices, motivations that we're not aware of but which arise in us and not implanted there. These are often guilt-based or concern competing commitments and typically sabotage one's conscious choices.

The superficial consciousness is often like a kid riding on an elephant of submerged forces.

Well maybe my Joseph genes would account for my passion of digging dirt and looking at skirt.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2015 07:18PM by Shummy.

I GOT IT!

being 'gay' / 'straight' is... kinda like the Claims/Promises that TSCC makes!


they claim (promise) that they're Honest, but they're NOT!

? why didn't I figure that out before / from the beginning ?!#*

Homosexuality is no more or less a "choice" than is heterosexuality. And so shouldn't be treated any differently.
End of story.

>End of story.

truth

I had posted about "free will" earlier: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1528073,1528073#msg-1528073

Sam Harris points out "No Free Will". Half of the Religions are Pre-destination religions which give us the caste systems, Calvinists, Royalty, etc...

When in my search to "Discredit" Sam Harris' conclusions--I found a secular talk video which I found silly, ill informed, conclusions based on nothing. https://youtu.be/2L1a7CHYVLg

This drove me to believe that there is no Free Will. I don't like it yet, but the science, logic, history, personal experiences are what I have to work with--and so I have to conclude, we don't have Free Will.

never did

never will

Are we nothing but clickophiles swimming in a cosmic soup?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2015 08:04PM by Shummy.

This one is pretty easy.

My dick chose for me...

Pin pulled..... grenade tossed

People do not choose their sexual orientation. But as to behavior- why is that even any one else's business between consenting adults?

Free will isn't about everything in our lives. Free will is choosing to accept Jesus as your savior or not. That is what the Bible means by free will. It is not so complicated as some make it out to be.

So we ALL exercise free will in our spiritual choice.

Free will as a philosophical subject has nothing to do with Jesus.

Free will in the Bible is not a philosophical subject. It is just a simple choice.

Of course we don't have free will philosophically in all areas, but we do in a lot. We choose who we marry, where we live, who we associate with. People can and need to take responsibilty for the chooses that they do have "free will" in.

Chosing religion as opposed to chosing your sexuality is not

the same thing. Quit using the subject to sell Jesus to us.

I'm not buying.... I don't chose to buy things that are not

real. If you want to talk about Jesus the pretend savior

make your own original post about him. Use your free will.

I was not trying to sell Jesus to you, I was just pointing out what free will means based on the Bible's teaching. I do not think lds follows the Bible, but they do twist it to their own benefit. I guess I thought the questions was what free will means, my apoligies.

See you use your free will to not believe.