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Posted by: justkeepswimming ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 11:54AM

On a separate thread, poster Helamonster said the following disparaging things about law enforcement.

I'm genuinely curious: do you agree or disagree with the following statements?

"HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Speaking of projecting...

Dude, I have worked with LEOs.

They aren't heroes. The majority are the same people who volunteered to be hall monitors in school, or just plain bullied people at recess, and still possess the same mentality.

How many circumstances can you actually name where the presence of a cop has actually *improved* the situation?"

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Posted by: helamonster ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 11:55AM

Are you a law enforcement officer?

I've worked with them. I know what I'm talking about.

I haven't seen evidence that you have an informed opinion about anything you spout off on.

Furthermore, are you trying to threaten or shame me with this post?

You'll die mad.

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Posted by: Aloysius ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 11:59AM

I know many law enforcement officers. All kinds. State, county, municipal, federal, military, etc. They are all people.

All people deserve common courtesy.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 03:16PM

"All kinds" Exactly. I'm not down for lumping them all together.

Nice to be judged for you own individual merit.


I do like to lump all Mormons together--right or wrong. That is my guilty pleasure which is mostly harmless.

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Posted by: Aloysius ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 07:50PM

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I do like to lump all Mormons together--right or
> wrong.


Don't we all? :)

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 12:06PM

Whenever I offer a homeless (looking) person money, he or she takes it.

Whenever a police officer pulls me over and I offer him/her money, I get in trouble! ...what is it with so many first world countries!!!

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Posted by: Kathleen ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 12:13PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2019 12:04AM by kathleen.

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Posted by: helamonster ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 12:17PM

I carry. I don't need police protection. Furthermore, in other times when I have needed police, they have done NOTHING for me.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 12:25PM

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/07/12/baltimore-police-not-noticing-crime-after-freddie-gray-wave-killings-followed/744741002/

When somebody B&E's your home, steals your car or computer, or you're in an accident, or somebody you love goes missing, I hope there's a trained, professional, experienced community organizer close by to take care of things for you.

Carrying is wise, helamonster: it gives you options most people don't have. But it doesn't protect you against every crime.

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Posted by: helamonster ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 12:29PM

Police haven't protected me against ANY crime.

Oh, and there's also a study of the NYPD strike that shows crime went DOWN during the duration of it. Don't cherry pick stats and expect to impress me.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 12:52PM

Crime in NY did not necessarily drop during the NYPD slow-down. Crime STATS dropped because they were enforcing less (fewer arrests, summons, and tickets). But you can't fudge homicide statistics. Those have risen in Baltimore with de-policing, motivated because the ranks learned they did not have the support of command and political leadership.

We have a mixed bag of agreement and disagreement, Helamonster.

My thesis: crime drops when potential perpetrators fear there may be unpleasant consequences should they commit crime.

We agree: where people have reasonable rights to carry, crime drops--a mugger knows there's a chance of encountering an armed victim. So, good for you!

We disagree: strong enforcement of lesser violations suppresses greater crime ("Broken Windows" concept). Example: "stop-and-frisk" reduced armed robbery and assault, but increases hostile interactions, because nobody likes being treated like a criminal, all very understandable. Understandable, unpleasant, but effective.

Perhaps this factors into your resentment of the police?

Disclaimer: I'm a retired Boston LEO, worked in a very liberal jurisdiction, and I live in a minority-majority district.

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Posted by: Aloysius ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 12:32PM

Sounds like your husband gets plenty of respect and courtesy. From your description, it sounds like he enjoys the praise and hero worship. Sounds like you do, too.

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Posted by: Kathleen ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 12:41PM


Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2019 12:04AM by kathleen.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 05:27PM

"...it sounds like he enjoys the praise and hero worship."

Who wouldn't?

I guess I missed the origins of this discussion. I don't get it.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 12:49PM

I think that there are good and bad officers everywhere.

Some are jerks and others are very conscientious.

For fun, let's start another thread about bad teachers.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 12:53PM

There are good cops and bad cops. Police departments tend to reflect the character of the city government. If you have a corrupt city government the good cops get frustrated and quit. I personally know a Seattle police officer who quit due to how incompetent the city government is there.

That being said let’s have no law enforcement and see how that goes for awhile. People would be begging for the police to come back.

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Posted by: Aloysius ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 01:02PM

You've highlighted an important issue. One of the paradoxes of our modern society. Police ARE the government.

People who profess to hate government programs, taxes, regulations, and bureaucrats clamor all over each other to profess their love for the police. In any city, the cost of the police force requires a tremendous amount of tax revenue.

On the other side, people who value government programs, vote for ever-increasing regulations, enforcement, and spending, profess the need to reduce police presence and (sometimes) eliminate police altogether.

It boggles my mind.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 01:03PM

Rubicon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you have a corrupt city
> government the good cops get frustrated and quit.
> I personally know a Seattle police officer who
> quit due to how incompetent the city government is
> there.
>
> That being said let’s have no law enforcement
> and see how that goes for awhile. People would be
> begging for the police to come back.

Portland OR has been hit with numerous early retirements and a lack of qualified applicants. Very few can pass the drug and background screening, and of those who do, even less make it through academy. The issues, Rubicon, is more the political environment than incompetence.

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Posted by: stillanon ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 01:24PM

My issue is with PD department arrest "quotas". No, you won't likely see that in writing. I know cops in 4 different agencies in Utah. They all get promoted and recognized based on arrests and arrest reports. So, gung ho cops, looking for promotions and higher pay, can turn most any situation that could be handled with a warning, into an arrest. They all do it, they just don't admit it. It's like the the Fight Club or the military- Don't ask, Don't tell. Don't get me started on my buddies friends, after drinking, start telling stories about "testilying" in court. Policing has changed a lot in the past 25 years. All citizens are suspect, not just the bad ones.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 03:01PM

In states with civil service laws, cops get promoted first on the basis of periodic exam scores. Then, other factors enter in: diversity quotas, political connections, oral interviews (with ranking officers from other jurisdictions), and performance. So the number of arrests may count--but not much.

A savvy supervisor knows which cops are out there working, and which are goofing off. Arrests, tickets, and reports do count.

Do cops arrest when unnecessary? Maybe. The appeal of court-time may factor in. Cops who want court time would be smarter to go for midnight (1st) or evening (2nd) when more crime occurs--a richer fishing spot, so to speak.

What is increasing--and I'm aghast by this--is increasing municipal or departmental revenue with traffic tickets. THAT, StillAnon, is where you're right. It's immoral, and prostitutes law enforcement.

Last, regarding "unnecessary arrests:" Generalizing, these are more likely to occur when somebody (the suspect or violator) mouths off, escalating the situation. Ask respectfully for a break, accept the ticket, and deal with an appeal later.

Hypothetical example:
Motorist: "Why are you stopping me instead of getting going after murderers and rapists?"
So, officer decides to check license and registration (instead of simply writing the ticket) and finds a state of suspension, which brings out the handcuffs and towtruck.

(I was hit with that response a few times. My answer: "I enforce big laws and little laws. This is a little law." (But keep mouthing off, and what might have been a warning might become a money ticket.)

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Posted by: stillanon ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 03:30PM

I know what the book says and I know reality. Just google "US police arrest quotas" and read the stories from ex-cops. Used to be, cops would look for ways to de-escalate situations. Now, many (I didn't say all) try to escalate situations to make an arrest. The cops that I know, most are 20+ year vets that are secure in rank and pay, talk about the young guns finding reasons to make an arrest. I'm saying that these days, many cops and departments WANT to make arrests where situations may not warrant one. In many Utah PD's, which are rampant with nepotism, people get promoted based on family and church connections, not so much on who supervisors know is working hard and who is not. Most all PD's have a form of SWAT teams. Many times they look for reasons to deploy them. The declining respect for cops is based on middle class taxpayers being treated as suspiciously and as rudely as gangbangers. Cops all take classes on "intimidation" using voice and posture to "gain control of the situation". Even if the "situation" is a 65 year old grandmother that forgot her drivers license.

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Posted by: macaRomney ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 03:20PM

We need to have cops and law inforcement since we are a 1st world country. That's what keeps us 1st world. If you think cops are bad here just go down South and cross the border. The police are the thugs and to get away from them you've got to bribe 'em.

But in a society over run with cannabis and worse, which is now legal, more disarranged people tend to appear than there was in the past. We have to give up some of our rights in exchange for safety. There's no arguing that fact.

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Posted by: stillanon ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 03:34PM

"That's what keeps us 1st world. If you think cops are bad here just go down South and cross the border. "

Or, go up north and cross the border, where police are respectful until they don't need to be (the also have weed). Go to the Netherlands or Japan and see how "civilians" treat police and police treat them. And NO. We don't give up our rights in echange for safety.
" "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Ben Franklin

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 03:42PM

"...more disarranged people tend to appear than there was in the past."

IKR? I'm one of them.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 03:37PM

Most professions have mostly good well meaning people and I think that would include law enforcement personnel.

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Posted by: stillanon ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 04:08PM

Exactly! The whole "don't let the bad apples spoil the bunch". However, in law enforcement, there's a lot of "look the other way" stuff with borderline cops. IMO, good cops that allow bad cops to be bad cops, have become bad cops.

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Posted by: tumwater ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 04:54PM

Is it my imagination or something, but is helamonster() the reincarnation of badassadam()?

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 05:02PM

No. Not even remotely close. Adam had trouble forming complete sentences and spelling words. Helamonster has been here a long time. And he has life experience to talk about. Not saying I agree or disagree with him, just that he's nothing like Adam.

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Posted by: Aloysius ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 05:26PM

tumwater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is it my imagination or something, but is
> helamonster() the reincarnation of badassadam()?


That sounds like an insult.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 05:20PM

My first job was working for the City of Los Angeles in the Civil Service Department (the department which does most of the hiring for City of Los Angeles civil service positions, from gardener and maintenance worker, through Chief of Police).

Much of my working time then was administrating civil service examinations (mostly the "orals," which means: "interviews"), and in this capacity, I spent a large percentage of my working time at Parker Center (across the street from L.A. City Hall, which was, at that time, headquarters of the LAPD), administering civil service exams, from entrance-level police officer through, in my case, Deputy Chief of Police. (The Deputy Chief of Police written exam was FASCINATING! I read it through like it was a novel!)

I have always been interested in government issues (my first real ambition, as a high school student, was to follow Rosalind Wyman into Los Angeles City Council), and while I was working for the City, I took several local government classes, and several police science (taught by veteran police officers of all ranks) classes, from Los Angeles Community College and....

....taking advantage of my City employee/Parker Center access, I also spent a great deal of my free time in the Police Library, which allowed me access to considerable reference material not generally available to the public.

Later in my life, years after I no longer worked for the City, I worked for Mayor Tom Bradley (grandson of slaves, the first black mayor of Los Angeles, who served as the Mayor of Los Angeles for twenty years), who had begun his government career as an LAPD officer, and became, as I remember, the first black officer to achieve the rank of LAPD Lieutenant.

He taught me a great deal I needed to learn....and he taught me more than he realized I WAS learning--some of it nuance on the much earlier, immensely needed and undisputed, improvements that Chief William Parker had made to the LAPD during Parker's long tenure (1950-1966).

In essence, I learned things from ALL of these experienced sources that I did not anticipate, and that I did not want to know.

In Los Angeles, applicants for entry level police jobs have to pass a psych test, to weed out those who should not have police jobs. (This is also true for the fire department, where there are specific concerns about the mental health of some applicants for specifically fire department jobs which must always be kept in mind and guarded against.)

One of the things I learned from administering these psych tests is that psych tests do not necessarily screen out everyone who SHOULD be screened out.

I learned (from a memorable LACC class I took on Vice Control, taught by a vice officer with many decades of experience) that police officers can come in many different shades of moral and ethical understanding. There is, indeed, a line, but the line shifts--and often these shifts have to do with differentials regarding race or ethnicity of those who are being policed by police officers.

I learned that not all LAPD officers are the heroes I once believed they were (Chief William Parker's historic, clean-out-the-corruption regime, and the still enormously influential TV show "Dragnet" (1967-1970), notwithstanding).

I think Los Angeles is still ranked at or near the top of the nation's "cleanest" police departments for overall ethics, but this doesn't mean that, either during the Parker era, or post-Parker, everything was, or is, hunky-dory.

There are still "hidden corners" which need to be cleaned out, and some of them (in some ways) go back to the beginnings of the LAPD in 1869....

....while others are increasingly fairly obvious "corners," especially in this new century of omnipresent information.

My life lesson: Law enforcement attracts many applicants who should not be police officers, but some of the percentage who should not be police officers are, in fact, selected to be police officers.

Sometimes police officers (or pre-officers, during their initial training) are not able to withstand peer pressure, or perhaps do not even realize that they are the victims of peer pressure. Their ethics and morality at the beginning of training are gradually overcome by the social pressure of both their peers and their superiors during the years they serve--plus: there is usually a practical financial need for individual officers to keep their jobs.

When this occurs, they learn to "go along to get along," while--year by year--they devolve, inside, under peer pressure.

Sometimes, as these officers hit retirement age, they have changed quite a bit (in negative ways) from the people they once were.

Even in a comparatively good police force like LAPD, things that "are," are not the way they are really supposed to be.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2019 09:24PM by Tevai.

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Posted by: Aloysius ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 05:50PM

Excellent!

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 05:56PM

Aloysius Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Excellent!

Thank you!

:)

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Posted by: Gheco ( )
Date: April 10, 2019 09:20PM

We lost a close family member a few years ago who was a LEO and died in the line of duty.

He was a great guy and I miss him.

With that being stated, watch the FB “Police the police” videos, and one can certainly understand why many of us think that a lot of cops belong behind bars.

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