This is something I have thought about often, and it popped up in my brain again, when reading someone's thread talking about their TBM-Aunts view of art.

Maybe Tal Bachmann can comment on this.

I would imagine that it would have to. Mormonism is the textbook, cookie-cutter, fall in line, homogenous belief system.

The LDS produced art that I have seen has mostly been of the type that you would see in any LDS chapel that you would walk into.

LDS authors? Lund is the best of the lot, in my opinon, and his characters are basically cardboard cutouts of the type of people that are in every LDS Ward. Very one dimensional and predictable.

Ive known some extremely musically gifted Mormons(mostly women), but without exception the only outlet for that talent has been the ward choir. I have to believe that a lot of talent has gone to waste, living out "their divine role".

I suppose this should be expected of an organization that demands that people consecrate their talents, to the church.

YES! Especially if you're a woman.

I wouldn't say that. I've known a lot of extremely talented Mormon musicians. Of course, if your idea of beautiful music is crappy primary melodies in C major, and that is your primary musical influence, then yes, you'll never progress as a musician.

It's interesting that many of the popular primary songs were written by Perry, who admits herself to having almost no musical ability.

YES, YES, YES.....I've seen it first hand.

When forms of expression become forbidden, art suffers.

Guitars are considered evil.

Electric guitars are from satan himself.

Who would have thought Leo Fender was satan?

I have a graduate degree in piano performance.

A few things I hated about doing music in the church:

If you were a pianist, the assumption was that you would play for anything (no matter how bad the arrangment), for anyone in the ward, anytime, for free, often at the last minute. And often they wanted you to teach them their vocal part, too. This is annoying to do for free when you should be paid (when it's actually part of your vocation). Do people expect other professionals to give away THEIR expertise to anyone in the ward who needs it?

The church gave me a job to do (music), and promptly limited and told me how to do it. Frankly, their guidelines have ruined music in the LDS church.

It was musically boring, unfulfilling, and sometimes I was downright embarrassed because what I was asked to play was so bad. They'd disallowed the best music. They wouldn't allow Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Schubert. Are you kidding? And yet they would allow some of the most inane hymn arrangements imaginable. Because of this, it was often perfunctory to do music in the LDS church. Which is such a waste, because their meetings could be taken to another level with good music. It's like they don't WANT people to be moved by it.

I did notice an attitude in the LDS church that you were supposed to develop your musical talents, but if you displayed any virtuosity or passion in the performance, you were irreverent or'showing off'. So basically, that was another limitation. I wasn't allowed to play anything challenging or interesting.

Agreed with your post.

Wanted to add--Yes, they do expect it of other professions. I was always being asked to fix someone's computer for free, or worse, for bad cookies. We lived in a ward full of doctors--I regularly--at least a couple of times a month--saw someone getting "free" medical advice and care. I saw several regularly diagnosing someone in an empty classroom and calling in prescriptions.

Yes. With Examples.

1. music selection for MS and HS bands, orchestras, and choral groups is heavily vetted in Orem where I grew up. Our middle school group was preparing the theme song for MASH for an upcoming concert but it was scratched because parents complained about the name of the song (suicide is painless). 4 weeks of practice down the tubes and we had to perform a rusty version of stars and stripes we had not practiced in months.
my sisters bands had songs by pink floyd and rush rejected. A friend and fellow drummer had his band performance at a talent show cut off in the first 30 seconds because the teacher did not understand the lyrics ant thought it was obscene despite the fact they had to submit the lyrics before being accepted into the talent show.

2. friend a couple years ago related on how he was put down multiple times at church and at his fathers funeral because he chose to play "devil's" music in a rock band. I initially thought he must be playing metal or hard rock. He played bass in a 80's pop band.

3. Lady from my college working on PHD in Opera was pressured to leave without finishing her degree to teach at the mormon college in Virginia. She was pressured by many in leadership of the ward and stake and finally relented. Worked there through 2 years of hell and then quit to return to the college. set her back 4 years on her phd.

4. Lady on my mission, gifted concert pianist, mostly Mozart and other very hard stuff. working on advanced degree and performing with various orchestras as a featured artist. Outright refused any music calling in the church because "Why would I give up any practice time on my job to practice stupid stuff like that.

5. Coworker at BYU. Showing his work as a senior in college of fine arts to graduate. Several of his submitted works were rejected and finally his art was moved to a closed gallery off the main floor and shown only on opening night and by appointment. He drew a few figure models that were a little too scantily clad for their comfort.

reddwarf wrote:

"4. Lady on my mission, gifted concert pianist, mostly Mozart and other very hard stuff. working on advanced degree and performing with various orchestras as a featured artist. Outright refused any music calling in the church because "Why would I give up any practice time on my job to practice stupid stuff like that."

Good for her. People who are over-qualified don't belong in a LDS church music job. There's no way for them to be happy doing it, and it's way below their pay grade. ;-)

My verb of choice would be suffocate.

Absolutely!

If they let people share and explore their artistic abilities, people begin to think outside the TBM box that mormons are forced into.

I attended a non denominational christian church after I left the Mormon church and I was amazed that they had a live band, with music that was actually good!

I think the boring, slow, uncreative hymns and songs Mormon churches allow- kills any creative, "out of the box" thinking that would lead to people thinking for themselves. Very Tragic.

My parents demanded we all take lots of lessons, especially dance. As we reached puberty, they suddenly realized they were likely training up some Las Vegas showgirls and it all suddenly stopped.

I do think the emphasis on women staying home makes them tend to be often overinvolved in their kids hobbies. It does have some results.

So You Think You Can Dance always seems to have auditions in SLC and finds many talented young dancers. Even scantily clad ones :)

The purpose of art is self expression -- not to be "faith promoting."

This was a big argument at BYU in the 70s - my art professors were outspoken about having non-representational art on campus instead of all of the warm and fuzzy "faith promoting" pieces of so-called art that were everywhere. You cannot constrict an artist's expression in any way or you're putting reigns on their creativity.

As long as the human body is considered lewd, obscene... art will be suffocated. There was no anatomy drawing lab or sculpture lab when I was at BYU. How can they continue accreditation?

I don't know about the current art/music programs. Artists should study elsewhere.

This always cracks me up, because I studied nude figure drawing at a small college in north California. There was no sexuality involved. Mormons have dirty minds.

Normal drawing lab... Maybe at BYU they wear body suits with airbrushed muscle definition... pubes painted on...

The only thing more sacred than a nude body would be garments. Garment lab drawings, must have recommend to draw. All drawings must be burned before leaving the lab. =[

BYU does have labs, and they have for a long time...of course, the models wear speedos and bikinis.

If someone being evaluated for a grad program showed a real portfolio with Speedos/bikini "nudes" they would not be taken seriously.

WHAAA....? I just graduated with a Visual Development degree from the Academy of Art University in San Francisco. HOW in the HELL does one obtain an art degree without figure drawing and anatomy??

At our school the courses that I took that involved the figure were: Figure drawing 1 & 2, Figure Modelling, Clothed figure 1 & 2 (the college offered Clothed figure from 1 - 5) Anatomy, Ecorche', and Character Design. MOST of those classes had live models. Many of those classes had nude models. I can not imagine what kind of artist BYU has been cranking out but it doesn't sound like they could be competitive in today's art world.

For a pop musician, exposure to many, many musical styles and popular figures in music is what makes them exposed and well rounded. Training happens in your ears as much as in your fingers. I would think limiting what people are allowed to hear would be stifling for sure. All the best players I play with have had exposure to a wide variety of music over their lives, usually starting from when they were quite young. Classical, Jazz, pop, metal, country … all of it.

Mormonism's limitations to what you can and can't listen to would be, well, limiting.

I was an art major at BYU in the early 70's and I took figure drawing classes as well as sculpture, both with live models.

The models wore fleshtone bodysuits/leotards. The models were students and others who were paid to pose.

We were instructed to draw what we saw, not to imagine details under the bodysuits, such as nipples, pubic hair, etc. And not to try to draw a realistic nude...because of course, well, that would be pornographic, you know...

Did you work in the arts? Teaching?

My sister, who is a real beauty, modeled for the BYU figure drawing labs in the 80s. She mentioned the body suits.

I've mentioned this before, but I wanted to be a comic book artists when I was 13. I had natural talent, but needed real instruction to go further. However, when my TBM saw some of my work, she had a freak-out about Satan "seeping through those cracks and inserting himself into our lives." I didn't think I would ever have a shot at being able to truly express myself without being hampered, so I never pursued it.

I was also a pianist and always asked to play, not something I was enthused to do.

over lunch in SLC just few years ago.

My recollection is that Tal replied to me that as far as he could tell, it had not. His reason for expressing that to me was that his dad, Randy was always very creative and he traveled with his dad and developed his own creativity from being around him. (If you read this, Tal, I hope I am recalling it correctly)

I also mentioned to him that I heard his dad speak at a fireside in San Bernardino, Ca in 1978. And to my suprise, Tal thought for a minute and said that he was with his dad at that time. Tal would have been age 10.

Small world. I have respect and admiration for Tal for many reasons, and for his willingness to help recovering Mormons.

When I was a youngster I frequently played appropriate cornet solos in church. Suddenly they were no longer allowed. MIND CONTROL IN ACTION

I really, really don't think this is due to the corporation as much as to the "chapel/social" conservative members. Look at The Jetts, Panic At the Disco, The Killers, Gladys Knight, Alex Boye, Bachman, Stephanie Meyers, (many actors/actresses [most are inactive, jack-Mormons {Paul Walker, Aaron Eckhardt, the Houghs, Amy Adams, etc...}]) even Mr. Deity himself was once a popstar!!! Even the raunchy Chelsea Handler had a Mormon Mom. Check the out famous Mormons site.

The point I am trying to make is that in the Moridor, it definitely is squashed or hidden away, yet outside of the moridor--The Liberal environment? The Bohemian lifestyle of Mormons outside of the moridor? Something drives these artistic people and in spite of being Mormon they're welcomed or encouraged in their artistic endeavors, Yet it has to be away from the influence of the hypocritical social Mormons.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2015 03:29PM by dydimus.

not sure I agree with you on this one. You forgot the Osmonds. That said, most of the artists you listed are out of the cult or joined the cult after they were successful.

Referring to people who left the cult as "Jack-mormons" demeans them as they are not "less Active because they want to sin". They are just plain OUT.

Well, that's an easy one to answer. The cult stifles, suffocates and chokes all of its members. That's what it does. Doesn't matter if its talking, reading, singing, playing a musical instrument, eating, making love and ad nauseum, the cult tells the member how, when, how, and why.

My grandfather ETB criticized me, via both personal phone call and letter, for cartoon-lampooning the Mormon Church during the Hofmann scandal, telling me to take it easy on the Church.

By way of background, in an episode that caused considerable consternation among the Mormon hierarchy, a skilled forgerer and document collector named Mark Hofmann attempted to alter the official version of the Church's beginnings by fabricating documents in which early Church leaders claimed a white salamander, not an angel, delivered the gold plates to Joseph Smith.

Before the forgery was unmasked, Mormon leaders, fearful the documents might actually be genuine, desperately attempted to buy them from Hofmann for tens of thousands of dollars, intending to hide them from the prying eyes of historians, the press and other perceived critics, not to mention Church members. Only when Hofmann, in a botched attempt to cover his tracks, blew up some Mormons, along with some of his own fingers, was the scheme discovered.

I drew a cartoon showing a stereotypical Mormon PR man, sporting a flat top and conservative business suit, on the phone to his secretary, wailing, "Mad bombers, white salamanders, forgeries, con men! Golly darn, Sister Jones, that does it! Get me a cup of coffee!"

My grandfather called my newspaper office, telling me directly and somberly that he had a cartoon in front of him that he wished to read aloud to me. After repeating the punch line, he paused dramatically and asked, "Why?" I was tempted to respond with a "Why not?" but thought better of it. Instead, I tried to explain that one of the best defenses in the face of criticism is an ability to laugh at oneself. My grandfather replied, "I still love you. Just go easy on us."

Here's what he then wrote me on official Church stationery regarding the same cartoon, reiterating the point he had first made in his phone call to me at my workplace:

"Dear Stephen:

"I still love you and encourage you to keep up the good work by pointing out by the cartoon method the evils of the day. I would just like to suggest that you go easy on the Church.

"The Lord bless you, my devoted grandson. I am proud of you. Love and blessings to all."

(Ezra Taft Benson, "Grandpa," to Stephen Benson, 7 November 1985)

The Hofmann-cartoon letter was the last personal piece of correspondence I received from my grandfather before he died nine years later. A few days after he penned it, he found himself the acting President of the Mormon Church, following the sudden death of Spencer W. Kimball. Omce under control of his handlers at the top of the Cult chain, I received no other personal correspondence from him.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2015 04:54PM by steve benson.

Lightly grilled salamander, please.

Were you allowed to draw during church as a child?

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2015 05:01PM by steve benson.

Creativity requires freedom. The freedom to do things differently and to see what does and doesn't work.

Pressure for conformity and obedience are the exact opposites of freedom. You can only be creative by challenging what currently exists and by discovering new points of view and new possibilities.

Most "Mormon-pleasing" artists are pure sycophants.

Mormonism stifles EVERYTHING!!!

TG

You people are totally forgetting the wondrous Mormon music we have heard since childhood!

Consider this unbelievable masterpiece: "Follow The Prophet"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcFks_graPQ