I tole them both that my Daughter is not taking Utah history. When they wanted a straight answer I told them that in chaper 5 of the text book that JS was mention as a prophet...I told them he was a pedophile and was the head of a cult and I did not want my children even exposed to it......they both about shit and agreed to allow the child to take other academic courses...My 12 year old is now registered and I think the school knows where our family stands. Fu.k them and their cult teaching....cult

How can they say that in school?!

Greyfort Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How can they say that in school?!

They can't. They can say Joseph Smith claimed to be a prophet and his followers regarded him as such. That is what every Utah history book I have seen says.None of them claim that he was actually a prophet. Joseph Smith is mentioned in one part of one chapter to give background as to why the Mormons immigrated to Utah. The Mormon trek, Brigham Young etc are covered because they are part of Utah history but so are many things that have nothing to do with religion.The books I have seen are also upfront about such things as polygamy, the Mountain Meadows Massacre and the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor.

Would you please give a reference about Johnsons's army going to Utah to stop polgamy... Also give civil rights history of the church and Brigham young it's leader....Please also reference in a Utah history book JS and the failure of the Kirtland Bank????Could you also reference for me the exact mountain meadows population with men, women and children killed AFTER giving up their arms.??Could you also show me in my Calif. history books any pictures of the POPE as reference as the the priest building the the missions???? Also please refernece for me in any 7th grade Utah text history book, where they got the LDS picture of JS to put into their book....Orginal photos were NOT used only mormon photo's???? Also could you also show me in he 7th grade book the paragraph that shows the to 14 year olds JS marriedA????? Maybe you could also quote to me the reference of the Bluffdale poligimist I see everyday here in Utah. How about the Texas Warren Jeffs fiasco as continued Utah history. Also please do not forget the pages that explain the Navoo Exposiotor being burned by JS, causing his death at Carthage.


Enough.......I know Mormon history and I live in Utah..Mormons are like cockroaches, they are everwhere and once you let them into your mind you need this extermination board to get them out. I have a Master's Degree in Education and am well aware that how is class is taught and the emphasis placed on subjects are teacher driven..If all or most teachers are LDS where do you think that empahasis is going to be????????

When I took Calif. history I never saw a picture of the pope in my books, and after 55 years I never had one catholic priest knock on my door and demand 10% of my gross income for life to join his church. Enough said....I have my experience and oinions and an education to know what I am talking about.

7th grade history in Utah is an extention of the PR department of the morg. Let your kids go, that is your right, mine will skip the class,,,,that is my rlght.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2011 12:25PM by get her done.

get her done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would you please give a reference about Johnsons's
> army going to Utah to stop polgamy... Also give
> civil rights history of the church and Brigham
> young it's leader....Please also reference in a
> Utah history book JS and the failure of the
> Kirtland Bank????Could you also reference for me
> the exact mountain meadows population with men,
> women and children killed AFTER giving up their
> arms.??Could you also show me in my Calif. history
> books any pictures of the POPE as reference as the
> the priest building the the missions???? Also
> please refernece for me in any 7th grade Utah text
> history book, where they got the LDS picture of JS
> to put into their book....Orginal photos were NOT
> used only mormon photo's???? Also could you also
> show me in he 7th grade book the paragraph that
> shows the to 14 year olds JS marriedA????? Maybe
> you could also quote to me the reference of the
> Bluffdale poligimist I see everyday here in Utah.
> How about the Texas Warren Jeffs fiasco as
> continued Utah history. Also please do not forget
> the pages that explain the Navoo Exposiotor being
> burned by JS, causing his death at Carthage.
>
>
> Enough.......I know Mormon history and I live in
> Utah..Mormons are like cockroaches, they are
> everwhere and once you let them into your mind you
> need this extermination board to get them out. I
> have a Master's Degree in Education and am well
> aware that how is class is taught and the emphasis
> placed on subjects are teacher driven..If all or
> most teachers are LDS where do you think that
> empahasis is going to be????????
>
> When I took Calif. history I never saw a picture
> of the pope in my books, and after 55 years I
> never had one catholic priest knock on my door and
> demand 10% of my gross income for life to join his
> church. Enough said....I have my experience and
> oinions and an education to know what I am talking
> about.
>
> &th grade history in Utah is an extention of the
> PR department of the morg. Let your kids go, that
> is your right, mine will skip the class,,,,that is
> my rlght.

Our book mentioned the Kirtland Bank and polygamy and the MMM, etc. It also went into the polygamy problems today although the one I used was written before Warren Jeffs. I suspect the newer ones cover him, although I haven't seen them. I quit teaching in 2003. The next time I sub for a Utah history class., I will look. Considering that Joseph Smith only got a few pages, they didn't go into that much detail.They didn't go into that much detail about anything else either. As far as pictures of the pope, the world studies book has pictures of several and the Utah studies book has pictures of Rev. Scanlan, Rev. Tuttle and other non Mormon religious leaders in Utah, past and present.You have a right to your opinion, but I think you are dead wrong.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2011 12:28PM by bona dea.

Thanks in advance.


HH. =)

We NEED a "like" or better yet- a "LOVE" this comment button!

I taught Utah history for years and no book I used [ I have used 4 different ones besides the one I used when I was in 7th grade which was written by Milton R. Hunter] and none of them claimed that JS was a prophet. They all say that Mormons believed he was a prophet or that he claimed he was a prophet.That is not the same thing and is true. He did claim to be a prophet and his followers believed he was one. With all due respect, I'd like to see this book.Until then, I'm not buying it,

As a no-mo growing up in Salt Lake in the '70s, I had Utah Civics/History in junior high and learned a lot about mountain men, the continental railroad and coal mining more than I did about Mormon history.

Any respectable teacher uses resources other than the assigned textbook. This shouldn't be a reason to remove your child from the classroom.

As for my kids who went through the same experience as no-mos, even in central Utah, they learned many things about Utah and not just about Mormons and their trek. Neither came home with a story like you described: one was educated in Salt Lake and the other in Sanpete County.

Please note that the majority of teachers are liberal; even in central Utah. Although they might be Mormon, the majority are pretty sensitive to this. They are the most outspoken advocates in the Union and vote more liberally than an other group. How do I know? I'm one of them.

I taught my kids how to critically think and ask questions of their teachers and peers. If I came in every time there was an issue, I'd be denying my kids the ability to debate and/or stand up for themselves.

Your argument sounds like the far right that takes kids out because they might be taught about evolution or abortion in school. Give your kids a chance to be challenged and to debate any subject and to learn from that exchange. That's what education is all about.

toto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As a no-mo growing up in Salt Lake in the '70s, I
> had Utah Civics/History in junior high and learned
> a lot about mountain men, the continental railroad
> and coal mining more than I did about Mormon
> history.
>
> Any respectable teacher uses resources other than
> the assigned textbook. This shouldn't be a reason
> to remove your child from the classroom.
>
> As for my kids who went through the same
> experience as no-mos, even in central Utah, they
> learned many things about Utah and not just about
> Mormons and their trek. Neither came home with a
> story like you described: one was educated in Salt
> Lake and the other in Sanpete County.
>
> Please note that the majority of teachers are
> liberal; even in central Utah. Although they might
> be Mormon, the majority are pretty sensitive to
> this. They are the most outspoken advocates in the
> Union and vote more liberally than an other group.
> How do I know? I'm one of them.
>
> I taught my kids how to critically think and ask
> questions of their teachers and peers. If I came
> in every time there was an issue, I'd be denying
> my kids the ability to debate and/or stand up for
> themselves.
>
> Your argument sounds like the far right that takes
> kids out because they might be taught about
> evolution or abortion in school. Give your kids a
> chance to be challenged and to debate any subject
> and to learn from that exchange. That's what
> education is all about.

+1. Let the kid take the class and if the teacher is inappropriate, deal with it then. Don't assume that your kids are going to be indoctrinated.Teachers know they can be fired if they cross the line here. This is ridiculous.I still would like to see the quote where Joseph Smith is declared a prophet.

I had that too in jr. high.

Didn't learn anything near the truth about the Mountain Meadows Massacre until my last year of college. God bless George Elsworth.

lulu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I had that too in jr. high.
>
> Didn't learn anything near the truth about the
> Mountain Meadows Massacre until my last year of
> college. God bless George Elsworth.
The text I used when I taught UH was written by Ellsworth and he did cover the MMM. Even the Milton R. Hunter text didn't proclaim JS a prophet. However, it did tend to concentrate on Mormon history and ignore or minimize everything else.

Once again, Bona comes in and makes sure to disagree and tell everyone she's the expert on everything.

get her done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I tole them both that my Daughter is not taking
> Utah history. When they wanted a straight answer
> I told them that in chaper 5 of the text book that
> JS was mention as a prophet...I told them he was a
> pedophile and was the head of a cult and I did not
> want my children even exposed to it......they both
> about shit and agreed to allow the child to take
> other academic courses...My 12 year old is now
> registered and I think the school knows where our
> family stands. Fu.k them and their cult
> teaching....cult

Utah history covers a lot of things besides Mormonism such as geology, dinosaurs,Frs Escalante and Dominquez,Mountain Men and explorers, the Doneer Party, the history of other churches in Utah, the Utah constitution . Joseph Smith is covered in maybe one chapter and in a neutral way. I do not think you are doing your daughter a favor by limiting her education. Sorry, but I am a Utah history teacher and a non Mormon.If she lives in Utah she needs to know the history of the place.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2011 12:29AM by bona dea.

Use the opportunity to talk about Joseph Smith, and how people are misled and how in history religion is used to control and use people.

She's going to hear about it from her friends and others, you might as well have open communication with your child.

I love it...

stormy

Maybe you should keep your kid out of American history because they might learn about Puritans or world history because they might learn about Muslims and Jews. I am sorry, but as a teacher,I think this is wrong. Kids need an education, they need to be exposed to various ideas and parents should not be taking them out of classes because they might be exposed to something the parents don't agree with. Learning about different ideas, religions, and philosophies is kind of the point of education. This really makes me angry. I'll shut up now, but I think this is an anti intellectual and bigoted attitude. If I were the principal, counselor or teacher, I would be appalled and quite worried about this child. I am shocked that so many seem to think this is okay. I have taught Utah history and have read the books and no text that I have seen teaches that JS was a prophet. That is crap..

I don't think it's noteworthy one way or another. There are many worthwhile things to study. If the kid were enrolled in a private school, she might be studying something else altogether anyway.

In the state where I teach, the state's history is covered in the fourth grade. Middle schoolers study early civilizations, world geography, religions, and culture, and U.S. history and government. By middle school, my feeling is that kids should be learning about the wider world.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think it's noteworthy one way or another.
> There are many worthwhile things to study. If the
> kid were enrolled in a private school, she might
> be studying something else altogether anyway.
>
> In the state where I teach, the state's history is
> covered in the fourth grade. Middle schoolers
> study early civilizations, world geography,
> religions, and culture, and U.S. history and
> government. By middle school, my feeling is that
> kids should be learning about the wider world.

Kids in Catholic schools in Utah take Utah history in 7th grade.I have subbed there. So far as I know, all the private schools teach it. Once again, is not Mormon history. In my class, we didn't even get to the Mormons until well into the second term. We spent the first term and a half doing geology, dinosaurs,Lewis and Clark, the Escalante expedition, Indians, mountain men and explorers and wagon trains which passed through Utah before the Mormons. The last term was civics, so it isn't as if we spend a whole year talking about Brigham Young.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Once again, is not Mormon history.

I believe you, and having taught my own state's geography and history, I know that it can be made interesting.

But when I thought about it, absolutely no one in my family ended up settling in the state in which they were raised. So I'm not going to get worked up over a child not learning her state's history.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bona dea Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Once again, is not Mormon history.
>
> I believe you, and having taught my own state's
> geography and history, I know that it can be made
> interesting.
>
> But when I thought about it, absolutely no one in
> my family ended up settling in the state in which
> they were raised. So I'm not going to get worked
> up over a child not learning her state's history.

The kid will survive without it, I'm sure, but where do you draw the line. Maybe the mother doesn't want the kid to take math, physics or English.Should the parents be allowed to decide what the kid should study? It seems to me that that is a recipe for chaos.I guess the attitude and ignorance about Utah history of the OP irritated me.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Should the parents be allowed to decide what the kid should study?

It's done all the time. College track vs. vocational school. Charter vs. public school. Montessori vs. traditional, etc.

My public high school allowed kids to choose semester-long areas of interest to study. I chose psychology and world religions for Social Studies. For English, you could choose from American Lit, grammar, and many other topics. We could study French, Spanish, Russian, German, or Latin. Sure, we did have to take U.S. history at some point, but a lot of what we studied was optional.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2011 02:15AM by summer.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bona dea Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Should the parents be allowed to decide what the
> kid should study?
>
> It's done all the time. College track vs.
> vocational school. Charter vs. public school.
> Montessori vs. traditional, etc.
>
> My public high school allowed kids to choose areas
> of interest to study. I chose psychology and world
> religions for Social Studies. For English, you
> could choose from American Lit, grammar, and many
> other topics. We could study French, Spanish,
> Russian, German, or Latin. Sure, we did have to
> take U.S. history at some point, but a lot of what
> we studied was optional.

I'm talking about required classes. Sure, there are choices, but there are also certain credits you have to fill. When I taught world studies, the kids had a lot of choices each term, but they had to take something in the world studies field. They had choices of which math classes to take, but there was still a math requirement. Utah curriculum requires Utah studies in 7th grade and there are no other history classes taught that could take its place and I don't see allowing a parent to take their kid out because they mention Joseph Smith.

The line derawn is clear....mixing of religion and state is unconsitutional, except in Utah.

get her done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The line derawn is clear....mixing of religion and
> state is unconsitutional, except in Utah.
I guess we can't mention the rise of Christianity and Islam, the Protestant Reformation, the Counter Reformation, the Puritan Revolution, the Pilgrims, the Great Awakening. Sorry, but those things are taught all over the couuntry, because they are history. A teacher crosses the line when they teach one religion as truth but they can and do teach religious history. There is no way to teach history without religion. Sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about.I guess in Utah history we should stop with the Mountain Men. Is it okay if we mention Father Escalante? After all, he was a priest.This is ridiculous.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2011 12:38PM by bona dea.

I took a quick look and didn't see anything I would have objected to my children learning.

http://sites.google.com/site/vhmshistory/u-s-history/utah-history



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2011 01:42AM by robertb.

Chaper 6 sucks and mormon propaganda. I will review the rest.

Assignment....faces toward hope all LDS shit... I have read and seen enought for me......Maybe we have different google's. I am still of the first opinion that how many times I have seen the word MORMON in this text is enough to continue my decision not to have my children exposed to this satanic cult.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2011 12:50PM by get her done.

get her done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Assignment....faces toward hope all LDS shit...

So we should just skip the Mormon pioneers because you don't agree with them? Should we skip WWII because we disagree with Hitler?Let's leave out everything we don't like or agree with. Sorry, but that isn't history.

Chaperter faces on hope assignment all lds crap.

desert blossums as a rose....not a mormon phrase???????

get her done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> desert blossums as a rose....not a mormon
> phrase???????


Actually it is from the OT although Mormons use it and I see nothing wrong with quoting a phrase that Mormons use. Are we only allowed to use quotes we approve? Are you sure you have a masters in education. Frankly, it doesn't sound like it.

GHD, you no doubt have reasons for feeling so strongly about the Mormon Church, but you are setting your daughter up to fight your battles with Mormonism for you. At least that is how I am seeing it. What you're doing reminds of divorcing parents using the kids to fight with one another. I think she can learn Utah History *and* you will be the more decisive influence in her life--unless of course you embarrass her and make school harder for her.

What did they do to deserve that?

The word will get out. Your daughter will get noticed in a negative way, and hassled because she doesn't have to take a required class. More trouble than it's worth just so YOU could make your point.

Damn straight!! Good on you!

Symboline Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Damn straight!! Good on you!

Or not. I am concerned that two teachers with experience in teaching history in Utah have pointed out that concerns about Smith being a prophet being taught in Utah schools is not right.

This reminds me of my mother barring me from sex education at school. I felt so humiliated. Don't do the same to your child. Don't humiliate her. Yes, you are making a point, as my mother did, but at what cost?

You might have misjudged The principal and school counsellor's reactions. They might have been looking at you and thinking: "I feel sorry for his child. This parent sounds like a reverse fundie to me."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2011 06:06AM by matt.

I can respect your comments. I raised 12 of my kids lds, the last two will have no expousure until their 18. That is my decision as their father. I have seen the results of the lives of the other twelve, and although I believe many comments are sincere and may have merits, I believe that having children stay away from guns eliminates them being shot accidentally. Utah history is mormon history.....they are my kids and I have the right to keep them away from all cults. When they turn 18 they can do what they want.....What I am dong can't be worse than how my other 12 turned out. AA has a saying that doing something twice and expecting different results is insanity...My kids are NOT taking Utah history. Period.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2011 10:54AM by get her done.