http://www.kutv.com/news/features/local-news/stories/BYU-students-speak-out-against-Honor-Code-policies-to-national-accreditation-board-115784.shtml#.VTAXn5Ml8g4

BYU has an Honor Code, and...so what?

Toleration means we grant private citizens and groups the right to make whatever rules for themselves they want, no matter how stupid, as long they're not outrightly injuring others.

If people want to go to a normal university, where they can express and wear what they want, they have many hundreds of other options. Deciding to go to BYU and then complaining about its stultifying codes is like moving to North Korea and then complaining you can't get Netflix: you knew what you were getting into, so all you're really doing is announcing to the world that you're a dolt.

If you want to shove a safety pin through your eyebrow and talk about how disgusting Joseph Smith's behaviour was, go somewhere besides BYU. And if you go there and don't like it anymore, you just transfer. That's what I did - I went to BYU for a semester, but it drove me nuts, so I went and finished my BSc at Utah State.

Let BYU be what it is - YBU. There is room for more than one set of values, barring their motivation of real injury; that's what toleration is all about.

Just my two cents.

BYU has a "Honor Code" type agreement they must live under in order to be and stay accredited. If BYU is unwilling to abide by these values then BYU should leave the accreditation system of be kicked out. This entire issue is about BYU and accreditation not students and the "Honor Code"

If BYU wants to do its own thing and forgo accreditation and the responsibilities which come with it that is fine. There are dozens of unaccredited Bible Colleges which have done this.

You do not understand the real issue.

Tal Bachman Wrote:
> Toleration means we grant private citizens and
> groups the right to make whatever rules for
> themselves they want, no matter how stupid, as
> long they're not outrightly injuring others.

Sure. They can have their "honor code." They just can't have their "honor code" and their intellectual freedom restrictions, and receive government accreditation and money. Those services are provided by taxpayers -- all of them -- and there's no reason taxpayers should pay to support private bigotry and stupidity.

We can "tolerate" BYU's private nuttiness, and allow them to continue it. That doesn't mean we have to accredit them or give them any taxpayer money, though.

This isn't about BYU being a private institution who can set any rules they like. This is about the National Accreditation Board finding that the institution is worthy of being Accredited or not.

BINGO.

That's well and good for those who go there of their own free choice. Far too many students are given the option from their parents of a paid education at BYU with approval gushing from the family or nothing. Disapproval, disinheritance, and no chance of getting higher education. Going it alone while trying to get a college education is a high price to pay for freedom from a controlled religious lifestyle. I agree that it is BYU's right to do it their way but legal isn't always moral. I worked for Church Ed. and saw students go to extreme lengths to get denied admittance or get kicked-out. One student slipped me a note across my desk begging us to NOT admit him so his parents would send him to another college. That's how bad he didn't want to go. BYU's indoctrination of families over the years has caused plenty of emotional pain and unnecessary suffering.

When I came of age my father told me Ricks (BYUI) or nothing. I chose the U.S. Army. The barracks were my dorm, and they had air conditioning. It was actually more comfortable than the hot and stuffy garage he'd made me live in. The Army is a harsh mistress, but it gave me more than my parents did.

The problem, as I see it, is this:
It is a privately owned university. If a student chooses to attend then they must subject themselves to the rules of the game that is played there. If the student does not like the rules then they would possibly be well advised to attend a different institution of higher learning more suited to their mindset.

I am not being facetious, only realistic and pragmatic.

No offence intended to anyone.

The news story cited by the OP is about National Accreditation Board hearing evidence about the Honor Code. They are there to decide if the enforced rules violate their standards for accreditation or not.

Some of what they complained about was the police state the honor code creates. While I agree with you that those not willing to abide by BYU's rules should just go elsewhere, I agree with those who complained because anyone can rat out anyone else at any time.

When I was at BYU, one high school frenemy stole the fiance of another high school frenemy of mine. They were roommates at the time at Riviera Apartments and "Robin" decided she liked "Susan's" fiance and lured him away, then dumped him 6 months later for someone she liked better. To get revenge, Susan made up all kinds of stories about what Robin and her ex-fiance were doing and reported the couple to the Standards Office. It was all Robin could do to not get thrown out of BYU. Stuff like that happened all the time and apparently is still happening today. That sort of communist block tattletale mind-games needs to stop but the super strict, well-enforced rules with the power of the Standards Office behind them make that unlikely and make for a suspicious, hostile environment.

If BYU receives federal funding of ANY type, including students using federal funds to pay tuition, then private or not, the institution should not be allowed to discriminate on gender, race, religion or sexual orientation.

If you run your institution like Hillsdale College, then you can do whatever the hell you please and tell everyone to pound sand.

BYU wants to drink at the trough of the United States taxpayer for grants and loans, but break the law when it comes to simple human rights.

You leave TSCC your tuition should go up. I am all for that, but if you're kicked out because you don't believe the Mormon narrative, then lose federal funding and possibly accreditation.

The National Accreditation Board requires the following in order for an institution to be accredited through them:

"15. ACADEMIC FREEDOM
The institution maintains an atmosphere in which intellectual freedom and independence exist. Faculty and students are free to examine and test all knowledge appropriate to their discipline or area of major study as judged by the academic/educational community in general."

This might be a problem in light of the Honor Code dealing with the requirement to be a believer or non-believer throughout the enrollment.

I think one of the issues was that Mormon BYU students who decide to leave the church are kicked out of BYU, while nonmember students are allowed to stay without converting. If a student decides to leave the church, shouldn't they be allowed to stay and just pay nonmember tuition rates? Obviously the church wants to get rid of all the bad apples so "the rot" (apostasy) doesn't spread. But is it fair to expel one group of nonbelievers while welcoming another?

It's the robbery of the years of scholastic work accomplished.

Not only get kicked out but all work becomes moot if you announce non-belief or any other infraction that the bish, who was the Glass store manager sitting in the pews the week before, decides you are unworthy due to whatever bug may be wiggling up his butt at the moment.

That is the real issue.

So I'm not with BYU on this one, I'm standing for something more.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2015 05:50PM by AmIDarkNow?.

Yep. And the fact that it's arbitrarily decided.

As many above have pointed out, this issue is not about whether BYU ought to be free to expel apostates. The issue is whether BYU's policy violates the express accreditation rules. It appears that BYU's policy clearly does violate the rules. As such, BYU should change their policy of face removal of accreditation.

The church will probably try to bribe the people giving accreditation.

IF ONLY it (no longer going to BYU) was that simple, after being indoctrinated to MORmON ways, investing a substantial and unrecoverable portion of one's time, life and finances into worse than worthless BYU credits ( or worse yet Rick's NON college NON credits), that do not readily transfer to some other college.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAWSGQMCM0U

aside from that ( the fact that LDS Inc leaders should be in prison for fraud), any private institution should be able to enact standards to suit their purpose. Leave it to BYU to slander black people and then to rely on a heavy dose of them to make their athletic programs function and to get away with it in the name of religion.

any dark skinned person that plays for BYU really is a MORmON. any dark skinned person who got outed and disciplined for having sex with their girl and stays at BYU and still plays for BYU...... is an epic MORmON!

speaking of epic MORmONS that just could get enough of being humiliated even on a national level for their association with BYU/ MORmONISM and then persisted in their association with BYU /MORmONISM.....

on the road to basketball nowhere with Brandon Davies

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Davies

on the road to MORmON White and delightsome with Pedro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ww3BGFhGbMA

Brandon Davies was CUCKOLD by "the brethren."

Yes, I understand the accreditation issue.

OK. Then what's your take on that? Should the be an accredited university that receives public funds?

Tal,
I only read your post because of time constraints and wish I had the luxury of explaining why I think you might be wrong on several levels.

For example, when a couple gets divorced the courts will not accept any decree where the wife signs away her rights, within reason.
Experience has taught the judicial system that females have often been coerced into surrendering rights that no person in their right mind would surrender.

Likewise, many students who attend BYU are coerced into going without understanding the full significance of the student agreements they sign.
Just because BYU is a private university doesn't mean students sign away their civil rights, regardless of how cleverly constructed BYU's student agreements are.
Of course, I'm not an attorney and may very well be wrong on this subject.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2015 07:25PM by heretic.

I agree. How many students would sign up if they knew that they would be penalized for any future change of mind by the university holding their degree as enforcement?

No other college I know of refuses a degree legitimately earned on the basis of wrong-think, or in some cases, wrong-f*ck.

This is egregious behavior and merits review as a human decency violation. Mormons give lip service to free agency, as we all know, so what about the academic freedom, cited above, which is supposed to exist, giving students the opportunity to examine all their facts and beliefs? It's supposed to be part of the individuation process, part of why people benefit from going to college in more ways than just the facts learned.

The accreditation body believes this. BYU doesn't. If they want the respect of accreditation, they have to give respect to the students.


Kathleen Waters

BYU has a right to limit education and distort truth. The easy answer is to strip BYU of its accreditation, stamp (in bright red) UNACCREDITED on every diploma, and then let them carry on doing business as usual. BYU cheapens the value of my degree by lowering the average worth of all degrees.

To top it off, most people on this planet have never heard of BYU, and might assume that it's on par with other US universities with regards to development of critical thinking skills, willingness to question accepted dogma in pursuit of truth, and so on.

Even if a student leaves the church, I do not believe they should have to pay the higher tuition for the remainder of their college degree. Why? Well, many just gave two years of service to the church and didn't get paid a dime! 6.5 days per week. I think the church owes them the reduced rate tuition, don't you?

Oh, not to mention all the tithing that their 7+ generations of Mormon family members have paid to the church over the past 180 years.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2015 08:17PM by porterrockwell.

I don't imagine BYU would give up its accreditation. They'll just change the policy if necessary.

How many kids will go public with their disbelief?

I entered BYU a brainwashed puppet.

My senior year (and a couple years after a Mission) I discovered that "the Church" was a fraud.

I left BYU to put my life back together.

A year later I came out of the closet in which the Mormon Cult had imprisoned me.

I am not allowed to finish my degree.

That's MY fault, Tal?

Go fuck yourself, respectfully of course.

sonoma Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I entered BYU a brainwashed puppet.
>
> My senior year (and a couple years after a
> Mission) I discovered that "the Church" was a
> fraud.
>
> I left BYU to put my life back together.
>
> A year later I came out of the closet in which the
> Mormon Cult had imprisoned me.
>
> I am not allowed to finish my degree.
>
> That's MY fault, Tal?
>
> Go fuck yourself, respectfully of course.

Sounds kind of like trying to restore a car.......

that has been run over by a train......

but a person has no other options because your life is the only life you have.

Wow, and the MORmON church (train) just keeps on rolling
right down its MORmON tracks like just like it is entitled to do so.

This is a little time consuming, to make it through every segment for the entire presentation, but very well worthwhile on several levels in my estimation. This is the ex mo foundation at work to allow you to be informed !!!!! Thinking about going to BYU ? having a child go to BYU ? maybe you should spend about an hour listening to this FIRST !!!!!

Part of what Charles talks about is leaving MORmONISM as a BYU student and still trying to make academic progress / graduate. AS IF it is not hard enough to graduate from BYU ANYWAY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_xVN3TrAGg

Sorry guys, Tal is right, and many of you misunderstand the accreditation process. I sit on an accreditation committee at the university where I teach, so I know a bit about the process.

In a nutshell, schools are evaluated on criteria that THEY THEMSELVES define. The accreditation committee bases their report on whether the schools meet their own pre-defined goals for educational outcomes.

Sorry folks, this may have been a cathartic experience for all present, and I certainly hope it was, but BYU will be accredited once again, and its faculty will serve on accreditation committees for other schools.

For all the BYU bashing that goes on here, BYU is, in certain fields (sciences and humanities included), nationally ranked, very competitive, and extremely well-respected.

The general consensus among their scholarly peers goes something like this:

"They're so smart, they're really smart, I really like their work... how can they believe that crap? Do you think they really believe that crap?"

"Maybe. Who knows? They sure are nice though!"

Seriously.

Sorry, no. That is the bulk of the evaluation, but it is not everything. Otherwise, any university could come up with their own self definition based on any crapola and be good to go. That's not the case.

So glad that you know the "general consensus among their scholarly peers".

Was that delivered to you by Moroni?

From Devoted Exmo's post:

> "15. ACADEMIC FREEDOM
> The institution maintains an atmosphere in which intellectual
> freedom and independence exist. Faculty and students are free
> to examine and test all knowledge appropriate to their
> discipline or area of major study as judged by the
> academic/educational community in general."

Is this in fact a requirement for accreditation? My complaint is in relation to intellectual freedom, rather than sex rules and membership stuff. If you major in Genetics, can your thesis state that the evidence indicates that the "Native Americans came from the ME 2600 years ago" hypothesis is bullshit? Will you be expelled and your credits cancelled?

I have written here before of my hatred of the Ricks Honor code and the little fuckin' Nazi on a power trip who got in my face in '66. He's one of the few people on this earth I truly hate. The other two Mormon's too BTW.

Ron Burr

anything like this ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAWSGQMCM0U

BYU, first day in English in the law bldg. The teacher said, "Who will give the opening prayer?" What? Ugh.

Famous religion professor/author trying to pick up on me. Smarmy.

BYU was not what I expected...

to me, this is clearly a case of how wide the governing body interprets the issue of 'academic freedom', and I think it's noteworthy that religion classes (required?) may fall into the scope of their inquiry/decision.