Re: My Mind Wrapped Around Atheism - a longish reply
Original thread posted by: superman4691
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1569953

Brace yourself for a long narrative. But your question is far from a simple one. I mean people write books trying to answer it. Here goes.

There is no evidence that can be examined by others proving the existence of an afterlife (no 'spiritual eyes need apply'). All we got on this one is belief, hope, and faith. But in fairness, belief, hope, and faith have been, in various forms, part of the human existence - there's been good, there's been bad, and there has been some real 'ugly' come out of it.

I had matters that as a father I needed to deal with in my family that compelled me to reach a point of view with clarity about TSCC. It was a 'clear and present danger' to the psychological well-being of my teenagers. Result. My truth is that TSCC is a damn cult. I proceeded accordingly. My teenagers and myself are out. Other family members in but TSCC is not presently a danger to them.

But, I have not reached the same clarity in my mind regarding anything supernatural like belief in a God, reincarnation, and so forth. I remain a skeptic on such matters. I do find things that are useful in various 'supernatural' belief systems and that spiritual experience do not require adhering to such beliefs.

Where I stand. Well, if I am asked a direct question of "do you believe in God" my response is: "I can only believe in a loving God, and in my mind a loving God would not really give a ripe as to whether or not you believed in him. Rather, I think that a loving God would just hope his children have the opportunity to live the full measure of their existence and along the way be kind to other humans." So I would argue that, for example, dedicated secular humanist is likely to be in better shape if there is a God than many believers who exhibit unkind behaviors towards others. In particular, those believers that use appeals to religion as justification of such things. Can you say "the 'brethren' and leaders who might carry out unkind policies without question? Now if God is a petty, small, and venial, entity I guess I am up shits creek.

The fruits of my labors in reaching the place I am currently at. I fear death much less than I did as a TBM. This frees me put more attention on living in the "precious present" and taking the time to notice opportunities to be a little kinder - and be better at my work as well. I accept that I am only human. I care more about living the measure of my present existence. I am more content with my present circumstances - professional as well as family. Now don't get me wrong here, my circumstances are far from being all 'cupcakes and puppy dogs', but it is my life to live and so I'll plan to live it. I have far fewer bouts of anxiety and depression, which I've suffered with for 50-60 years of my life. And when they do show up I get them under control much much faster. I no longer have any use for notions of sin and shame. Rather, I see things I choose to do as working out better or worse for me in my life. This has been quite liberating. However, it does make me a pain in the ass to so called leaders in TSCC - I give them no power over me and allow them no quarter in matters that affect my life or the lives of those I cane about. But I am proactive to head off crap from TSCC landing in my life. This last part is seems to be a task without beginning or end. Ugh.

Now more direct answer to your question: I wrap my head around atheism by embracing that the only thing I am absolutely sure about is that I have this life to live. Because of this I want to live it to its full measure whatever that might be. In doing this I try to strive to be kind to humans, be happy in the present, and tend to those I love and care about. Call me a 'damn humanist' if labels make it easier for others to process where I stand. It is as good as any.

Something to keep in mind that I've observed about atheism so far. Some seem to raise atheism to the level of what could arguably be called religion with its own norms and rules of what it means to be a 'proper atheist'. But I think most atheists might agree that atheists reject belief in the supernatural. Much more than that seems to me to be a matter of personal philosophy and ethics. Yes. A simplification. But it is what I've thus far gleaned from the conversations on this board and other things I've read.

What I do know - what I can 'testify' too. "After rejecting TSCC I have found that I am presently happier with the man I am than I was before. That little voice in my head now tells me that I am a good man, good husband and good father rather than one who is not - even though I am far from perfect on any of these counts. I am also more content with my life and ruminate much less about the past choices or what the future may or may not hold. The shit-storm foisted on my life by TSCC is presently waning. But I take nothing for-granted that or any other matter.

For those that have endured to the end of my tome. Thank you.

Mannaz: I have always found your perspective interesting. Here are few brief comments:

MANNAZ: There is no evidence that can be examined by others proving the existence of an afterlife (no 'spiritual eyes need apply'). All we got on this one is belief, hope, and faith.

COMMENT: Although, I note the caveat "that can be examined by others," this comment suggests that reports of paranormal experience have no evidential value. That would only be true if they could all be reasonably explained by natural processes; e.g. fraud, illusion, etc. My own review of this literature convinces me that not all of such reports can be easily explained, and thus swept under the rug. As such, credible reports of the paranormal remain as "evidence" for a non-materialist worldview, and represent data to be explained by the scientific materialist. Thus, your statement: "All we got on this one is belief, hope, and faith." is a bit short-sighted in my view.
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MANNAZ: I have not reached the same clarity in my mind regarding anything supernatural like belief in a God, reincarnation, and so forth. I remain a skeptic on such matters. I do find things that are useful in various 'supernatural' belief systems and that spiritual experience do not require adhering to such beliefs.

COMMENT: Of course, not reaching clarity is one thing, dismissal is another. Moreover, "useful" for what? As psychological self-deception to deal with existential reality? Or useful as a genuine possible explanation for "spiritual experience?" I think if one can be genuinely tentative on at least some level of metaphysical reality, one is left free to think about a broad range of possibilities. Although I have to admit that for me being open minded about the paranormal has not gotten me very far in "useful" metaphysics about God.
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MANNAZ: Where I stand. Well, if I am asked a direct question of "do you believe in God" my response is: "I can only believe in a loving God, and in my mind a loving God would not really give a ripe as to whether or not you believed in him. Rather, I think that a loving God would just hope his children have the opportunity to live the full measure of their existence and along the way be kind to other humans."

COMMENT: For me, a loving God *would* care deeply about whether we believed in him, since such belief that would bring us comfort, and help us relax as we strived for "the full measure of [our] existence." As such, I wonder why, if God does exist, she seems to be so elusive and indifferent to rational belief.
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MANNAZ: Now more direct answer to your question: I wrap my head around atheism by embracing that the only thing I am absolutely sure about is that I have this life to live. Because of this I want to live it to its full measure whatever that might be. In doing this I try to strive to be kind to humans, be happy in the present, and tend to those I love and care about. Call me a 'damn humanist' if labels make it easier for others to process where I stand. It is as good as any.

COMMENT: I consider myself a "humanist" atheist too, for the same reasons you articulate. However, I retain in the back of my mind, a an inner voice that surfaces from time to time, startles me, and whispers, "Maybe there is some point to all of this after all." Call such experiences "spiritual" or whatever, but they are part of the data of my experience, which shapes my worldview ever so slightly.
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MANNAZ: But I think most atheists might agree that atheists reject belief in the supernatural. Much more than that seems to me to be a matter of personal philosophy and ethics. Yes. A simplification. But it is what I've thus far gleaned from the conversations on this board and other things I've read.

COMMENT: First, I think the notion of "supernatural" is unnecessarily pejorative against religion. Theists are generally not hung-up with beliefs in the supernatural. They think that God is part of a broader natural world, which she somehow manipulates at will. Atheists, of course, would reject the existence of any kind of God, natural or otherwise. However, in general they also dismiss the "paranormal" presumably for fear that such phenomena are just too close to theology. However, in my mind, dismissing the paranormal along with God involves a questionable inference that they are one and the same sort of thing. Paranormal phenomena are empirical; they involve human experience, even if not scientifically verifiable or explainable. God, on the other hand, involves the postulation of infinitely extended human-like properties, and mind, that just seems to make no sense.
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For those that have endured to the end of my tome. Thank you.

COMMENT: Thank *you!*

Henry, thank you for engaging in my comments. I also enjoy reading your posts and the thoughtful insights you offer. You always make me think. In looking at your comments I think that by and large we are closer in perspectives than not. So a few more thoughts to toss into the stew we are making. Please excuse my not quoting the above...it is out of compassion to other readers of the thread :).

I am prone to being a bit 'glib' at times. Perhaps part of my attempt to lighten things or sooth myself or others. My wife and kids will also attest to my penchant for pontificating. What can I say. So here goes.

I did not mean to be so bold as to dismiss the possibility of the paranormal or anything else that others attest to experiencing. I think I'd have to have 'supernatural' abilities to do that. Alas, I do not ... but I do hope someday... The "caveat" you note in my reasoning is more about myself and as such I do not disagree with your point.

On the next point I again did not mean to dismiss metaphysics or anything else. In terms of things supernatural my thoughts were along the lines of Joseph Campbell's "Myths to Live By". I think having myths/rituals, even if we are skeptical about the core substance of them, do give us a way to bring some order to how we make sense of the world. Contemplation is important but I also think a little ritual that helps us reduce anxiety and move on about the days tasks is good as well. "Self-deception" is kind of a loaded word. I think it is OK to give yourself a respite by knowingly engaging in a bit of functional "self-deception".

I think "the conception of a loving God" may be an agree to disagree item between us. Although I do hope that if there is a God that 'she' does cut me a little slack. I do think that a loving God would be OK with us finding comfort in something other than belief in her. (btw, is the 'her' a reference to Giai? That would be an interesting lens to look through on this)

Good to hear that the 'humanist' is strong within you. I think on this item I can plead, as noted above, that I "have not reached clarity" here. I am still trying to find my way back from the 'whiplash' effect of rejecting the cult and thus wanting to also reject just about everything that could smack of religion in any way. I am trying to tell myself not to be to hasty in rejecting things as I try to lick the deep wounds left by the years of betrayal by TSCC.

On my use of the word "supernatural" I plead naiveté. I am still trying to learn the language to express myself within the humanism conversation. I hate to say this but I picked up the 'supernatural' phraseology from reading "Jen Hancock's Handy Humanism Handbook" early on. Simplistic yes. But at the time a really useful summary I read early on. I have a reading list I'm still working through and adding to on the topic.

Henry, it is a delight to read your comments on my post. They make me think. Thank you again for engaging in what I wrote -- it is a complement well received.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2015 08:32PM by mannaz.

Henry Bemis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT: Although, I note the caveat "that can be
> examined by others," this comment suggests that
> reports of paranormal experience have no
> evidential value. That would only be true if they
> could all be reasonably explained by natural
> processes; e.g. fraud, illusion, etc.

Well, not really.
See, claims (especially anecdotal ones) have no merit until and if they can provide objective, verifiable evidence they're correct.
In science (and logic), claims don't automatically have value unless you can show evidence they're false; in fact, claims have no value until you can show evidence they're correct. So there's no need to "explain" away the claims to give them no value as evidence -- they have none to begin with. And that remains they case until objective, verifiable evidence shows them correct.
I wouldn't, of course, suggest holding your breath waiting for any such evidence for the claims...:)

I tried agnosticism for a long time, but I couldn't believe it forever. No belief at all made more sense.

There is so much to learn, and so much to unlearn that I now am unashamed to admit that I am a lifelong unlearner.

I read a book recently about Edward Bernays. What a mind expanding trip that was.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Edward+Bernays

He taught that anything could be foisted upon anyone with sufficient time, attention and fact weaving. I saw that our world is completely the work of such loomists.

It has never been easy to be a human. Now it's not easy to be even a subhuman.

I am now reading about Robotic Rights. Will robots possessing AI be able to marry? Run for public office? Take over civilization? These are being well discussed by minds far above my pay grade, with amazing regularity.

I am absolutely dumbfounded. Death, to me, is the greatest gift, as it ends (I hope) this sick new world.

we Atheists just don't believe your bullshit.

Wrap your head around THAT !

I think a belief in the afterlife is a childish response to the worry of death. The reason I say this is because no one views the afterlife as some miserable, lonesome, dank never ending nightmare. Humans always see it as "better" than what we have now even though if there is an afterlife its just as likely, if not more likely to be some hellish nightmare. What would it be like to be some disembodied intelligence with no ability to impact to universe around you? Or perhaps you end up in a totally different dimension that is never ending pain and discomfort for a human "soul" that has been molded to our current reality.

In the end, we don't know, but its probably even money that if there is nothing after we die, we are better off for it.

You need to read the Greek and Roman view of the afterlife. It was dark,miserable and you were unawaremof your identity. Achilles tells Odysseus that he would rather be a slave on earth than king of the land.of the dead.Definitely not a better place. Other ancients had a.similar or worse view

I wouldn't say the idea of an afterlife is childish. In addition, you forget that some people do believe in a hell afterlife and some do believe they're going to it.

Belief in the after life is more of a way to cope. Not only death of themselves, but for others. An afterlife is a way to finish the unfinish and resolve loss ends in people's lives. With death there is always the could of, should of, would of that happens in mourning and the belief of an life after death is a way to cope and move on from loss.

Yeah, and some people believed that if they committed suicide they would be taken away on a comet.

Some people once believed that if you threw a virgin into a volcano it would appease the volcano god and the volcano would not erupt.

I doubt it is even money at all.

We know the brain organizes, stores and processes the information for the living, but nobody can explain how this is done after death of the brain. What organizes, stores and process the information after death? How is this transitioned at death? Why do we need a body at all if all this can be done without a body?

Until someone can show how life after death is even possible, we can not say that it is 50/50.

it's the "Atheism is a religion" argument yet again.

I much prefer the "religion is insanity" argument.

so tell us about these beliefs.

A lack of a belief does no constitute a belief unless you are insane.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2015 12:11AM by Dave the Atheist.

whats the difference between a dishonest christer and moron ?

a person who keeps on creating that strawman is almost an idiot.

Keeping the anti-atheists talking is almost the best thing we can do.

They almost completely discredit them selves with almost no input from the atheists.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2015 12:22AM by MJ.

An atheist, vegan, and crossfit walk into a bar......

And almost can almost understand them, well, not almost, more like almost not at all.

Yeah, we've all heard that one. But thanks for making my point in such an obvious way.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2015 12:36AM by MJ.

An atheist, vegan, and crossfit walk into a bar and the Atheist immediately asks what a "crossfit" is and is immediately murdered by christers.

A few atheists here manage to discredit themselves with their ignorance too.Ignorance, bigotry and simplistic views of the other side are not confined to the religious

And almost is a prime example of the theist intellect and credibility, eh bona?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2015 01:11AM by MJ.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2015 01:11AM by MJ.

A few theists here manage to discredit themselves with their ignorance too.Ignorance, bigotry and simplistic views of the other side are confined to the religious.
.