In the SL Tribune, there have been many "Letters to the Editor" regarding Baptisms for the Dead and how it isn't offensive and how it isn't binding. It's a loving thing they do (not at all about the numbers, right?).

They just don't understand how a person (or the person's family) could possibly be upset that their culture, religious practices, earthly existence, etc. is called into question by TSCC. Here's one:

http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/2439179-155/letter-posthumous-baptism-not-a-noose



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2015 02:53PM by tiredoflies.

I'm sending Fred Ash my drycleaning bill. I barfed a little when I read that dreck.

I'm going to ask again, because I really don't know: how many dead-dunked people have been CONFIRMED? There *is* an ordinance for the *confirmation* of the dead, wherein they are declared members of the LDS church. There is no tip-toeing around this....that it's only giving the dead a "choice" about becoming mormons in the afterlife, so religious folks have an honest beef about it.

Hmmmm.......no mention of choice.

BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD

Baptism for the dead is usually performed by Mormon youths between the ages of twelve and eighteen. Dressed in white clothes, the youth enters the baptismal font and stands upright. Using his (her) left hand, he (she) grasps his (her) own right wrist, and uses the fingers of the right hand to hold the nose shut while being immersed. The person performing the baptism stands at the left side of the youth and grasps the youth’s right hand with his left hand. He then raises his right arm to an angle of ninety degrees ands repeats the baptismal prayer. Following the prayer, he places his right hand on the youth’s back and supports him (her) during immersion, raising the youth quickly out of the water to an upright position again, when the ceremony is repeated several more times on behalf of other deceased persons.


Brother _______, having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you, for and in behalf of _______, who is dead, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.

CONFIRMATION OF THE DEAD

Following baptism, the deceased must be confirmed a member of the Mormon Church. This ceremony does not have to be performed by the same proxy by the baptism, and usually isn’t. The proxy sits in a chair, and two Mormon Elders place their hands on the proxy’s head, and repeat the following, for each deceased person.

Brother _______, in the name of Jesus Christ, we lay our hands upon your head, for and in behalf of _______, who is dead, and confirm you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and say unto you, Receive the Holy Ghost. Amen.

Aha. Having never done BFD, and not reading on RfM that anyone here has done CFD, I did not realize that *every* deceased person who went through BFD was confirmed. So how in the hell can Mormons flat out lie that BFD gives the deceased a choice!?!?!?

Jeeeeezusssssss.......

Let's say the proxy kid did 14 dunkings. That would mean he/she climbed out of the font 14 times to be confirmed for each of the spirits.

Now they do this more efficiently in another room and they don't care if the dunkee is the same as the one who confirms.

There is no wording to indicate that anyone has a "choice" to accept or reject the baptism or confirmation. The assumption is they'll all be thrilled for the opportunity to finally be Mormon.

To say "if the baptized soul so chooses."

No, I'm not buying the "non-binding" provision.

They're selling pink unicorns and you're worried about the fine print in the sales contract when selling one to dead people?

The person is dead and pink unicorns do not exist. Either condition is sufficient to void a contract.

To me, it's much like peeing on someones grave. It has no effect on the deceased, but it sure would be offensive to the loved ones if they found out about it.

At best, baptizing for the dead is just plain tacky - not to say downright stupid.

I agree with you 100%.

The Jews got the Mormons to agree to stop baptizing Holocaust victims, out of deference to their religious views.

What the bleep is wrong with the LDS church it can't respect ours too?

I believe if people formed a class action lawsuit, we/they might prevail against this great evil.

It is reprehensible on its face, and disrespectful to both the deceased, and their wishes, and their families whether Jewish and others who aren't LDS and find it distasteful, nor have any desire to ever be associated with the Mormon church or its record rolls.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2015 10:38PM by amyjo.

Exactly! Totally agree! It's just disrespect. It's disrespect to the living family and loved ones. But, it's also disrespect to that person's memory. People would not leave instructions for their burial and funeral, etc. if they cared not at all about what happened to them after they died. BUT, they do leave pretty specific instructions, SO.......... I know many people who would be offended to know they had been baptized by proxy with the mormon church. Furthermore, I know a lot of mormons who would be pretty offended if someone was doing 'ordinances' of another faith for a dead relative of theirs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2015 12:35AM by dogeatdog.

I agree that it's disrespectful to the religion and culture of the deceased, especially if they have living descendants who wouldn't have approved. I'm glad I trusted my gut when my grandma did her genealogy work and I refused to show my TBM ex-husband because he would have turned that over to TSCC for temple work. As my grandparents were devout Catholics, they would have been extremely offended if they found out their ancestors were necro dunked.

Good point, caedmon: NO CHOICE; and I always thought why the fuss, one can always refuse the ordinance. But a 'careful' reading of the words don't allow for CHOICE. Let them insert a caveat: "If YOU Choose". HHU?

If it's non binding, then why do it at all? Unless it's just another trick to get members into the temple, which requires payment.

Maybe Joseph has his own little corner in heaven where he's allowed to play.

It's called the "Pig Pen."

necrodunking is insulting to the memory of the deceased.
It means his or her religion or lack thereof isn't good enough and mormonism is needed.

Mitt Rmoney's Atheist father-in-law comes to mind.

Luckily he had hisunbabptism in Real Time.

https://youtu.be/ctm0lA6PCsA

Does anyone here know whether those who've been excommunicated will be dunked again after they're deceased?

Isn't that the most insulting thing you've ever heard?

In life or in death, the holier than thou bastards can't let the dead rest in peace.

:(

The wording of the baptism and confirmation adds the words, "John Doe who was excommunicated . . ."

OR "Jane Doe who had her name removed . . ."

I printed this from the official LDS website years ago. It's been taken down since then.

So basically, the sick bastards can cut people off without a second glance, or as in my case I had my records removed, and yet they'll baptize me once I'm dead, or an apostate other.

That is the sickest thing next to baptizing in proxy at all.

I want nothing to do with this sick practice now or in the afterlife.

The only reason polygamy became illegal was because the law made it so.

Now with the exodus out of that god awful cult, there may be more interest in bringing a lawsuit against the church to stop this ugly and unethical practice. That will be the only way to get the f*ing Moron church to stop it once and for all.

Is if the government steps in because they are violating my civil rights ie., my religious choice and yours.

Lawsuits have been brought and won against funeral homes for violating the wishes of the deceased or desecrating their bodies for burial.

This is another form of desecration, that has to be stopped if we are to be a moral society.

The sick church won't stop proxy baptisms unless it's made to.

These proxy baptisms are an excuse to mistreat us when we leave their church because they assume the dead dunking puts everything right.

I remember sitting in a chair in the temple and being ordained an elder for the dead. But that was nearly 40 years ago.

That whole practice just sounds really really creepy to me.

I'm glad you left that behind. How bizarre!

If the bigger concern is about the "soul", perhaps those doing the dead dunks would have a greater presence in lifting the spirits of the living. The elderly and at-risk youth are always in need of companionship/mentoring yet if this is where they get the warm n fuzzies....

Let's be honest about how TSCC ever got into Baptism for the Dead anyway. It was not even a part of Mormonism until Nauvoo, and even then was started by performing the proxy baptisms in the nearby Mississippi River.

Joseph's mother and some of his family were of the religious belief common at that time and still held today by some Christians that the unbaptized cannot go to heaven. She was always deeply concerned about the eternal fate of her oldest son Alvin who died from a drug overdose administered by Mother Smith herself.

I feel that Joseph saw Baptism for the Dead as a way to relieve his family from further suffering, but never visualized what a massive undertaking it would become.

Mormons just don't get it. Baptisms for the dead expressly imply that they believe the dead person's religion or beliefs were bull$hit. How is that not offensive?

Because Mormons live in their own little world, irrespective of what civilized people say, think, or do about their faith - which should be left up to the individual, not a church to make that very all important and personal choice about a religion.

Many non-Mormons would be aghast to learn what happens after they die. My grandfather HATED Mormons with a passion, on my mom's side. So after she joined the church, he stopped speaking to her for 14 years, and only started back on his deathbed.

He had a full Masonic funeral in Ogden where he was laid to rest. And sure enough, after one year had passed, my mom had him baptized! He'd be rolling over in his grave, that's how much he hated Mormons and the church.

Mormons are violating his, mine, and other families civil rights by going against our wishes, even or especially after we're gone. They take advantage of "well they're dead now, so what?" So what, is everything!

Totally disingenuous, disrespectful, and arrogant on its face. It defiles the memory of the deceased, and erases their history of what they chose to be and not be, in life.

Templar wrote: "To me, it's much like peeing on someone's grave."

The pee of 12 oxen....

Because it's unethical and lacks integrity and respect for the deceased's wishes and their loved ones.

That is a no brainer.

They don't have a system to stop doing this except to trust those who turn in names. So if the Jewish leaders make a big deal of it, Mormons stop temporarily but go right back to it when the heat is lifted.

Mormons only stopped doing it for Holocaust victims, until the backs were turned, then started doing it again until it was re-discovered. Now they make excuses, like Anne Frank being baptized 8 times since the Holocaust, that the local places where ordinances were performed didn't know any better.

They continue to baptize other Jewish deceased, including Daniel Pearl, without his family's authorization or consent.

And then Elie Wiesel is scheduled for his post-humous dunking, along with his already deceased parents but for he's still breathing. It is just out of line completely with what's moral and civilized conduct becoming of a church.

The only way it will stop is if the Mormons get an injunction from the courts, like it did with polygamy. That's the only way this practice will end.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2015 05:07PM by amyjo.