Prior thread here:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1571071

Don't get excited. Not much happened. The sisters scheduled me for 4:00 today and also had a 5:00 dinner appointment. Knowing that we didn't have that much time I decided not to try to get into any of the strategies that you guys have helped me develop. Probably for the best.

Instead we worked mainly on rapport development. The conversation was just one rabbit trail after another, sometimes serious, sometimes silly, lots of fun, and the sisters once again expressed very high regard for me. So perhaps I'm gaining credibility, and earning more of a right to say some of the things I haven't been able to get to yet.

At one point in the conversation I mentioned to them that the sign outside the chapel says Visitors Welcome. But nowhere is there any information about when to show up or what you would be showing up for. Nothing like Bible Study Wed 7:30pm like on normal churches. (Kind of like the way American coins have no numbers on them to tell you their value. We don't notice such things until our international guest points it out. I actually used this example with them.)

They were astonished at themselves for never noticing the lack of posted meeting times. At first they said they would submit the idea of posting times to someone in authority. Then they switched to trying to come up with a reason for the way things are. Surely there must be a good reason. What could it be? It was hilarious to watch.

I'm invited to church on Sunday. Seriously thinking about going. At a meet-up this evening someone suggested that at F&T I should pull out a note pad and write down what the various people at the mic give a testimony of. The church, the BoM, family, etc., with tick marks beside each one to count the number of times mentioned. She was suggesting that I would find that Jesus comes in last place.

As always, I'll keep you posted.

JAR

P.S. If ever I get crazy enough to graffiti the sign outside a Mormon chapel it will likely then read "The Church of everything but JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints. Visitors Welcome if you can guess when to show up."

Wear a suit with a white shirt, unless you really want to stand out as a visitor. I wore a good suit with a light blue shirt, and felt very conspicuous.

I posted this once before, but it was so much fun. Indulge me.

I visited a ward with a lot of Ivy League grad students in, and sat next to one such young man. We talked each other up, and he invited me to his SS group, even though I should have gone to the older men's. A young guy was giving a presentation on "compassion," and went --awkwardly -- through various KJV and BoM passages. He kept looking at me (obvious intruder). It was apparent he was trying to get some participation (none was forthcoming), and he didn't have enough material for the tie.


About 10-12 minutes to go, and he had exhausted his material. He really hinted that he would like my thoughts. So I opened up the KJV they had loaned me, and came up with several citations that he had overlooked, including, amazingly, the Good Samaritan. I went up to the whiteboard and wrote them down.

And talked about them. And gave some Biblical background. I filled out those last 10 minutes very easily, and had everybody's attention--and apparent appreciation.

I tried to think of little ways I could get to some flaws in LDS theology, but alas, nothing came to mind. But it did occur to me: Here I was, a born-again Baptist--and I was TEACHING Mormon Sunday School!

Thanks for the fashion lessons, but I'm pretty sure the facial hair is going to give me away. So colored dress shirt and a tie bright enough to sear a hole in the cornea is the plan.

Since I'm likely to land in Gospel Doctrine class, is there some way to know which chapter of the book -- I have a copy -- they'll be on? Who knows, by being prepared I might also get called to the board to deliver an impromptu lesson segment. And would jump at the opportunity.

Looks like lesson 15-17 with some variation?

I found a three sites with conflicting info. I tried posting it but there's some word in what I wrote it doesn't like and I have no clue what!

I googled Gospel Doctrine 2015 and found two that way plus looked on twitter and found a 3rd there (two were sites that actually had podcasts done 2 weeks out for the material to be available for someone teaching to prep, the other was a printed pdf schedule.

You found the flaw. Mormons know next to nothing about the Bible. Anyone who knows anything about the Bible could easily teach a mormon a few things about the subject.

As a mormon, I only knew very basic bible stories. Very little if any detail.


GD lessons for 2015. The number of the lesson is the week of the year. Sometimes they get a week ahead or behind depending on the teacher.

https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testament-gospel-doctrine-teachers-manual?lang=eng



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2015 10:59AM by madalice.

IMHO, Mormons know very little about the bible and don't take it literally.

However, they take EVERYTHING literally about the BOM.

Oh, yes! I've had that thought at least vaguely but never found the words to express it. This is perfect -- when escorted by a member.

Actually there are two possible Sunday school classes for investigators, if the ward is well staffed.

First is the Gospel Doctrine course for the adult members. The class is made up of those who do not have an assignment (calling) to be doing something else at that time (e.g. youth Sunday school teacher, child primary teacher, primary staff (e.g. pianist, chorister, primary presidency, etc.) and ward librarian, etc.).

Second is the Gospel Essentials course for investigators and new members. This course usually has in attendance: any investigators, new members, the full time missionaries, the local ward missionaries (folks who have that title as their ward calling), the ward mission leader, sometimes a bishopric member (but rarely), and members who don't want to be in the Gospel Doctrine class and like to associate with the missionaries and support them.

Gospel Essentials isn't always taught by assigned teachers as is the Gospel Doctrine class. Often the ward or full time missionaries rotate among themselves as the instructor. The class is very small and is often much more informal. The course material is pre-determined from the Gospel Principles manual divided into 47 chapters: https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles?lang=eng



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2015 11:37AM by jiminycricket.

My ex-husband and I repented of some sexual stuff we had indulged in before we were married in the temple. We were assigned to attend Gospel Essentials in our BYU couples ward afterward. My ex-husband was a return missionary, so this was silly. The funny thing is after our divorce a couple of years later, my calling was Gospel Doctrine teacher in a BYU singles ward. In my class were all return missionaries. So, obviously, the bishop in our married ward was a complete idiot for thinking we were so dumb that we had to attend Gospel Essentials just because my ex had figured out a way to unclasp my bra before we were married, so there there might also be people going through a Gospel Essential's class. It felt like a punishment and I hated every minute of it. Has anyone attended those classes? They are the worst!!

I meant to say that there might be other people just going through a repentance process in a Gospel Essentials class, not just investigators or new converts. It can also be a punishment type of thing. My ex left the church soon after we started attending the class. It was his last straw.

As a ward missionary who was, unbeknownst to most in the ward, on his way out of the church. I had to attend Gospel Essentials class.

I realized it was time to leave when my comments about church leaders, history, or doctrine always contained the disclaimer word journalists use: allegedly

As in "Joseph allegedly translated the Book of Mormon."

Remember; This Sunday is Fast & Testimony. That's always a hoot to bring an investigator to. Have fun if you decide to go. You'll hear little kids spouting whatever the parents whisper in their ear. Someone will give a travel itinerary. Someone will give the equivalent of the "God help me find my keys" testimony, so with tears and all, they know Joseph Smith was a prophet and the church is true.

I believe that the sign is disingenuous, and is intended to give a feeling that one is welcomed. Don't forget that any real visitor is boxed in on the pew so that he or she can't bolt. That's not a welcoming scenario.

This makes me want to go to the old meeting house and be the disruptive investigator that I was before the "spirit" fell upon on me and trapped me for thirty years. Being much wiser and a grumpy old man, I doubt very seriously that I would succumb twice in a lifetime to such a fraud.

From your posts I can tell you are bright and expressive, so please don't take this the wrong way.

But...

"...the sisters once again expressed very high regard for me."

And of course they did. Building a relationship is all about flattering the "investigator."

Thanks for that reminder, left4good. I haven't lost sight of the basic reality here. These young ladies are oozing with façade. Actually, the Sr comp much more than the Jr.

I think they truly are impressed with me as a person who treats them with dignity and respect, a person who is open and honest about the deeper things of life, a person who has clearly put in the time and effort to understand their religion, etc.

As a convert to Christ (the real one, not the phony Mormon one) while already in the middle part of life, I'm able to speak humbly to them about the night-and-day contrast between the jerk (and that's putting it very mildly) I once was, and the clearly transformed person they see now.

The result is that they're both already (after only two meetings) beginning just a little bit to open up toward me also, one having admitted to family difficulties (vague, yes) and the other to having sibs who struggle (also vague). I don't have high expectations for progress along those lines, but you never know.

The Jr. Mish's testimony to me face-to-face was of nothing but Jesus, not Joseph, not the church, not the prophet, and that was consistent with what I read on her blog. She has a very tender heart.

Or, you could be totally right, and this is all just a game that they don't fully recognize they're playing. Don't worry. I've had young ladies (having nothing to do with Mormonism) act in outrageously flirtatious ways toward me before. I know what the hook in the heart feels like, and when to just turn and walk away.

Thank you so much for your concern.

JAR