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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: May 04, 2015 09:49PM

You know it's Spring when the missionaries start bugging you while you're rummaging in your purse for your keys.

So, the long and short of it is that I asked them if they knew about blood atonement. Blanks stares. I told them about BY and miscegenation. Blank stares. One of them said some old crap about members sustaining some dumb shit, and I said "Dude. Brigham Young."

Anyway, they tend to flee when I talk about the whole Lamanite bullshit being disproved by science and that my brown skin helps protect me from skin cancer and it's not a curse, and that's usually when the brown missionary stares at me, and the white one walks away. I pointed at my forehead and told the brown one to think. Just think. Think.

I'd have told the white one the same thing if he weren't already walking down the street.

Here's my question: The interracial marriage business gets the most traction with the brown missionaries. They are shocked as shit.

I need a reference that they won't consider anti.

I need your help.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2015 10:01PM by Beth.

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Posted by: Ex-CultMember ( )
Date: May 04, 2015 10:25PM

Well, most of the blood atonement quotes can be found in early LDS sources such as the Journal of Discourses. Here's some I pulled from http://mormonthink.com/QUOTES/bloodatonement.htm. But don't tell the missionaries you got the quotes from this website. Just quote the original sources as provided below:

---------------------------------------------------------------

“I [am] opposed to hanging, even if a man kill another, I will shoot him, or cut off his head, spill his blood on the ground, and let the smoke thereof ascend up to God; and if ever I have the privilege of making a law on that subject, I will have it so.”

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 5, p. 296, 1949


“[My life was in danger] if I remained there, because of my protest against the doctrine of Blood Atonement and other new doctrines that were brought into the Church.”

- Apostle William Smith, brother of Joseph Smith, Jr., Temple Lot Case, p. 98

“I will tell you how much I love those characters. If they had any respect to their own welfare, they would come forth and say, whether Joseph Smith was a Prophet or not, ‘We shed his blood, and now let us atone for it;’ and they would be willing to have their heads chopped off, that their blood might run upon the ground, and the smoke of it rise before the Lord as an incense for their sins.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 2, p. 179, February 18, 1855

“The time has been in Israel under the law of God, the celestial law, or that which pertains to the celestial law, for it is one of the laws of that kingdom where our Father dwells, that if a man was found guilty of adultery, he must have his blood shed, and that is near at hand.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, p. 219

“Will you love your brothers and sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood? That is what Jesus Christ meant.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Deseret News, April 16, 1856

“Any of you who understand the principles of eternity – if you have sinned a sin requiring the shedding of blood, except the sin unto death – would not be satisfied or rest until your blood should be spilled, that you might gain the salvation you desire. This is the way to love mankind.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Deseret News, April 16, 1856

“I say, rather than that apostates should flourish here, I will unsheath [sic] my bowie knife, and conquer or die [Great commotion in the congregation, and a simultaneous burst of feeling, assenting to the declaration.]. Now, you nasty apostates, clear out, or judgment will be put to the line, and righteousness to the plummet [Voices, generally, ‘go it, go it.’]. If you say it is right, raise your hands [All hands up.]. Let us call upon the Lord to assist us in this, and every good work.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, p. 83; online at http://journals.mormonfundamentalism.org/Vol_01/refJDvol1-16.html

“Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them. You would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the Kingdom of God. I would at once do so, in such a case; and under the circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands.... There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, pp. 108-109

“If you want to know what to do with a thief that you may find stealing, I say kill him on the spot, and never suffer him to commit another iniquity. I will prove by my works whether I can mete out justice to such persons, or not. I would consider it just as much my duty to do that, as to baptize a man for the remission of his sins.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, pp. 108-109

I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the law might have its course.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, p. 43

“Now take a person in this congregation who has knowledge with regard to being saved... and suppose that he has committed a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desires, and that he cannot attain to it without the shedding of blood, and also knows that by having his blood shed he will atone for that sin and may be saved and exalted with the God, is there a man or woman in this house but what would say, ‘shed my blood that I may be saved and exalted with the Gods?’”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, pp. 219-220

“It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet men can commit sins which it [the blood of Christ] can never remit.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, p. 54

“This is loving your neighbour as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, p. 220

“If men turn traitors to God and His servants, their blood will surely be shed, or else they will be damned, and that too according to their covenants.”

- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, p. 375

“It is not fully comprehended why it was necessary that Jesus Christ should leave the heavens, ... and come upon the earth to offer himself up a sacrifice; ... why this should be, why it was necessary that his blood should be shed is an apparent mystery.... What sins of the world did he take away? We are told that it is the sin which Adam committed.”

- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 10, pp. 114-115

“The people of Utah are the only ones in this nation who have taken effectual measures... to prevent adulteries and criminal connections between the sexes. The punishment, for these crimes is death to both male and female. And this law is written on the hearths and printed in the thoughts of the whole people.”

- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 223

“I say, there are men and women that I would advise to go to the Presidency immediately, and ask him to appoint a committee to attend to their care; and then let a place be selected, and let that committee shed their blood. We have amongst us that are full of all manner of abominations, those who need to have their blood shed, for water will not do, their sins are too deep a dye... I believe that there are a great many; and if they are covenant breakers we need a place designated, where we can shed their blood... Brethren and sisters, we want you to repent and forsake your sins. And you who have committed sins that cannot be forgiven through baptism, let your blood be shed, and let the smoke ascend, that the incense thereof may come up before God as an atonement for your sins, and that the sinners in Zion may be afraid.”

- Apostle Jebediah M. Grant, 2nd counselor to Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, pp. 49-51

“We would not kill a man, of course, unless we killed him to save him...”

- Apostle Jebediah M. Grant, Deseret News, July 27, 1854

"I would have a tendency to place terror on those who leave these parts [Utah], that may prove their salvation when they see the heads of thieves taken off, or shot down before the public... I believe it would be pleasing in the sight of heaven to sanctify ourselves and put these things out of our midst.”

- Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, p. 73

“... We may talk of men being redeemed by the efficacy of his [Christ’s] blood; but the truth is that that blood has no efficacy to wash away our sins. That must depend upon our own action.”

- Apostle Amasa M. Lyman, Apostle, Journal of Discourses, v. 7, p. 299, 1859

“Has Jesus done anything that will bring salvation to you and me? The chief of what he has done is that he has revealed the plan of the Gospel – the scheme of human redemption, and manifested himself among his brethren; and we may say he has done a great deal more, for he has shed his blood for it. So have others shed their blood. But whose blood has cleansed you and me? It is said that the blood of Jesus cleanses from all sins. Then why is it that we remain sinners? It is simply because the blood of Jesus has not cleansed us from sin – because it has not reached us.”

- Apostle Amasa M. Lyman, Apostle, Journal of Discourses, v. 7, p. 298

“... inasmuch as the blood of Christ was shed for original sin unconditionally, but for the remission of actual sin conditionally.”

- Apostle Charles W. Penrose, Journal of Discourses, v. 21, pp. 81-82

“The principle, the only one that beats and throbs through the heart of the entire inhabitants of this Territory, is simply this: The man who seduces his neighbors wife must die, and her nearest relative must kill him!”

- Apostle George A. Smith, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, p. 97

“Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church.”

- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 1, pp. 135-136, 1954

“The Mormons believe in blood atonement. It is taught by the leaders, and believed by the people, that the Priesthood are inspired and cannot give a wrong order. It is the belief of all that I ever heard talk of these things – and I have been with the Church since the dark days in Jackson County – that the authority that orders is the only responsible party and the Danite who does the killing only an instrument, and commits no wrong.... Punishment by death is the penalty for refusing to obey the orders of the Priesthood.
“I knew of many men being killed in Nauvoo by the Danites. It was then the rule that all the enemies of the Prophet Joseph should be killed, and I know of many a man who was quietly put out of the way by the orders of Joseph and his apostles while the Church was there. It has always been a well understood doctrine of the Church that it is right and praiseworthy to kill every person who speaks evil of the Prophet. This doctrine was strictly lived up to in Utah...”

- Elder John D. Lee, Brigham Young’s adopted son and member of the Danites, John D. Lee Diaries

Others:

“I married Jesse Hartly, knowing he was a ‘Gentile’ in fact, but he passed for a Mormon, but that made no difference with me, although I was a Mormon, because he was a noble man, and sought only the right. By being my husband, he was brought into closer contact with the members of the Church, and was thus soon enabled to learn many things about us, and about the Heads of the Church, that he did not approve, and of which I was ignorant, although I had been brought up among the Saints; and which, if known among the Gentiles, would have greatly damaged us. I do not understand all he discovered, or all he did; but they found he had written against the Church, and he was cut off, and the Prophet required as an atonement for his sins, that he should lay down his life. That he should be sacrificed in the endowment rooms; where human sacrifices are sometimes made in this way. This I never knew until my husband told me, but it is true. They kill those there who have committed sins too great to be atoned for in any other way. The Prophet says, if they submit to this he can save them; otherwise they are lost. Oh! that is horrible. But my husband refused to be sacrificed, and so set out alone for the United States: thinking there might be at least a hope of success. I told him when he left me, and left his child, that he would be killed, and so he was. William Hickman and another Danite, shot him in the canyons; and I have often since been obliged to cook for this man, when he passed this way, knowing all the while, he had killed my husband. My child soon followed after its father, and I hope to die also; for why should I live? They have brought me here, where I wish to remain, rather than to return to Salt Lake where the murderers of my husband curse the earth, and roll in affluence unpunished.”

- Miss Bullock of Provo, Utah, quoted by Mary Ettie V. Smith, in Nelson Winch Green, Mormonism: its rise, progress, and present condition…, 1858, 1870 ed., p. 273

“In the excavations made within the limits of Salt Lake City during the time I have resided there, many human skeletons have been exhumed in various parts of the city…. I have never heard that it was ever the custom to bury the dead promiscuously throughout the city; and as no coffins were ever found in connection with any of these skeletons, it is evident that the death of the persons to whom they once belonged did not result from natural causes, but from the use of criminal means.”

- R.N. Baskin, Reminiscences of Early Utah, 1914, pp. 154-155

“It was one of the hot-beds of fanaticism, and I expect that more men were killed there, in proportion to population, than in any other part of Utah. In that settlement it was certain death to say a word against the authorities, high or low.”

- DaniteWilliam Hickman, Brigham Young’s Destroying Angel, 1964, p. 284

Concerning two captured Confederate commissioners in Utah, Brigham Young said he: “would put them where they would never peep. He [Brigham Young] uttered this sentiment with such a wicked wording of the lower jaw and lip, and such an almost demon spirit in his whole face, that quite disposed to be incredulous on those matters...”

- New York Tribune, July 15, 1865

“In the past decade, potential jurors in every Utah capital homicide were asked whether they believed in the Mormon concept of ‘blood atonement.’”

- Salt Lake Tribune, Nov. 5, 1994, p. D1

“Just last month, attorneys for condemned child-killer James Edward Wood in Pocatello, Idaho, argued that his defense was undermined by a visit from local [Mormon] church leaders who talked to him about shedding his own blood....
“His [Wood’s] attorneys contend Wood is a victim of a Mormon belief in ‘blood atonement.’ ... Judge Lynn Winmill... heard hours of testimony during the past week about Mormon doctrine on apostasy and forgiveness of sin. Wood’s lawyers even asked the bishop who presided over the church court that excommunicated Wood about secret temple rituals involving symbolic throat and slashing or disembowelment, but Winmill did not require him to respond.”

- Salt Lake Tribune, Nov. 5, 1994, p. D1, D5

“Accordingly, the doctrine asserts that those who commit certain grievous sins such as murder and covenant-breaking place themselves beyond the atoning blood of Christ, and their only hope for salvation is to have their own blood shed as an atoning sacrifice. In his writings, Joseph Smith only hinted at the doctrine, Brigham Young successively denied and asserted it, Joseph F. Smith ardently defended it, and in more recent years, Hugh B. Brown repudiated it and Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie both have vigorously defended it in principle while staunchly denying that the Church has ever put it into actual practice, whereas most other General Authorities have prudently preferred to remain silent on the subject. It should be noted that the whole notion of blood atonement is so obviously linked to the Mormon literal mind-set that it does not seem to admit of a mitigated, symbolic interpretation and is either accepted or rejected outright, depending on one’s level of literalistic belief.”

- Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, v. 15, no. 3, p. 93

“To whatever extent the preaching on blood atonement may have influenced action, it would have been in relation to Mormon disciplinary action among its own members. In point would be a verbally reported case of a Mr. Johnson in Cedar City who was found guilty of adultery with his step-daughter by a bishop’s court and sentenced to death for atonement of his sin. According to the report of reputable eyewitnesses, judgment was executed with consent of the offender who went to his unconsecrated grave in full confidence of salvation through the shedding of his blood. Such a case, however primitive, is understandable within the means of this doctrine and the emotional extremes of the [Mormon] reformation.”

- Dr. Gustive O. Larson, BYU Professor, Utah Historical Quarterly, Jan. 1958, p. 62, note 39

Blood Atonement and Apostle Bruce R. McConkie (1915 - 1985)


“From the days of Joseph Smith to the present, wicked and evilly-disposed persons have fabricated false and slanderous stories to the effect that the Church, in the early days of this dispensation, engaged in a practice of blood atonement whereunder the blood of apostates and others was shed by the Church as an atonement for their sins... there is not one historical instance of so-called blood atonement in this dispensation, nor has there been one event or occurrence whatever, of any nature, from which the slightest inference arises that any such practice either existed or was taught....
“But under certain circumstances there are some serious sins for which the cleansing of Christ does not operate, and the law of God is that men must then have their own blood shed to atone for their sins.”

- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 92

“Well, if I understand Elder McConkie [in the above quote], he was saying that, although earlier Church leader’s never believed, preached, or practiced blood atonement, we actually do believe in it and would practice it if we had the legal and political power to do so. (Even thought we didn’t when Brigham Young presided over the theocratic territory of Deseret.)”

- Keith Norman, Mormon scholar, Sunstone, Aug. 1990, p. 11

----------------------------------------------------------------

Now, if a missionary denies the above quotes as just anti-Mormon lies you can read the following from the church's own website. The church CONFIRMS that the early church leaders, such as Brigham Young, taught blood atonement:

"Nineteenth-century Americans were accustomed to violent language, both religious and otherwise. Throughout the century, revivalists had used violent imagery to encourage the unconverted to repent and to urge backsliders to reform.35 At times during the reformation, President Young, his counselor Jedediah M. Grant, and other leaders preached with fiery rhetoric, warning against the evils of those who dissented from or opposed the Church. Drawing on biblical passages, particularly from the Old Testament, leaders taught that some sins were so serious that the perpetrator’s blood would have to be shed in order to receive forgiveness.36 Such preaching led to increased strain between the Latter-day Saints and the relatively few non-Mormons in Utah, including federally appointed officials.

...See, for example, Brigham Young, in Journal of Discourses, 4:53–54; and Heber C. Kimball, in Journal of Discourses, 7:16–21. This concept, which came to be known as blood atonement, was a stock component of anti-Mormon rhetoric in the 19th century. While many of the exaggerated claims that appeared in the popular press and anti-Mormon literature are easily disproven, it is likely that in at least one instance, a few Latter-day Saints acted on this rhetoric. Nevertheless, most Latter-day Saints seem to have recognized that the blood atonement sermons were, in the words of historian Paul Peterson, “hyperbole or incendiary talk” that were “likely designed to frighten church members into conforming with Latter-day Saint principles. To Saints with good intentions, they were calculated to cause alarm, introspection, and ultimately repentance. For those who refused to comply with Mormon standards, it was hoped such ominous threats would hasten their departure from the Territory.” (See Isaac C. Haight letter to Brigham Young, June 11, 1857, Brigham Young Office Files; Peterson, “Mormon Reformation of 1856–1857,” 67, 84n66; see also Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 5 vols. [1992], “Blood Atonement,” 1:131.)" https://www.lds.org/topics/peace-and-violence-among-19th-century-latter-day-saints?lang=eng

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: May 04, 2015 10:27PM

printing this list. Thank you!

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: May 04, 2015 10:45PM

“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race?
If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood
with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is
death on the spot. This will always be so.

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 10, p. 110

Notice that Brigham Young is laying down "the law of God" here
and not giving a personal opinion--he is speaking "as a prophet."


“Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by
strict law to their own species...”

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., January 2, 1845, History of the
Church, v. 5, p. 218


First Presidency Letter of July 17, 1947, to Lowry Nelson:

"From the days of the Prophet Joseph Smith even until now, it
is has been the doctrine of the Church, never questioned by any
of the Church leaders, that the Negroes are not entitled to the
full blessings of the Gospel.

"Furthermore, your ideas, as we understand them, appear to
contemplate the intermarriage of the Negro and White races, a
concept which has heretofore been most repugnant to most normal-
minded people from the ancient partiarchs till now. God's rule
for Israel, His Chosen People, has been endogamous. Modern
Israel has been similarly directed.

"We are not unmindful of the fact that there is a growing
tendency, particularly among some educators, as it manifests
itself in this are, toward the breaking down of race barriers
in the matter of intermarriage between whites and blacks, but
it does not have the sanction of the Church and is contrary to
Church doctrine.

"Faithfully yours,

[signed]

"George Albert Smith
"J. Reuben Clark, Jr.
"David O. McKay

"The First Presidency"

Quoted in "Mormonism and the Negro" by LDS writers John J.
Stewart and William E. Bennett [Orem, Utah: Community Press,
1960], pp. 46-47.

Note that the first presidency calls it "doctrine" and not
"policy." If the Church claims that their racist practices of
the past are not of God, then ten "prophets" in a row
instituted and enforced an false, evil, hateful, racist
practice and blamed this disgusting thing on God. I can't
think of a more blasphemous thing. If the Church claims that
their racist practices of the past are of God, then the Church
is claiming to believe in the principle of racism--it's just
that they aren't currently enforcing the racist policies that
is part of their belief.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2015 11:02PM by baura.

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: May 04, 2015 10:53PM

I was mumbling and fumbling and telling them to look in the Journal of Discourses and maybe the D&C, but I wasn't sure. I told them to Google "blood atonement," and they should find information about it that's not on "anti" sites, but I wasn't sure if I was bullshitting them.

My neighborhood is a rich mix of white, black, Pacific Islander, Latino, and Native American, many Native Alaskan. I think that's why the missionaries I see are usually a mixed pair. Many people here are multiracial.

Usually the junior companion, no matter what ethnicity, looks the most gobsmacked. Maybe it's the ranting old lady thing. ;-)

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: May 04, 2015 11:12PM

there was a brown missionary ?

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: May 04, 2015 11:28PM


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