I don't get why unpaid clergy is a good idea. There are men who have no social skills who just want power and who are completely uninspiring. Plus the extra job of some positions means that with working full time the men neglect their families.

I think the morg has become used to pocketing the money they would pay to clergy and they love that green cash. The fact that they provide clueless leaders who work themselves to death and ignore their own families does not matter to the morg. Nothing matters but following the profit.

I don't think it's a good idea, in that you typically get what you pay for.

But power and leadership positions are the only things LDS, Inc. really offers anyone of any substance.

I know, I grew up being so proud of that fact! Now I see the problems inherent in having someone with zero training and zero education in the field counselling people on things he knows zero about.

Isn't there some scripture somewhere that suggests it's sinful for clergy to be paid? I can't remember.

No. In fact, Scripture (by this I mean Christian Scripture) is pretty clear that it's okay for ministers to have financial support. See, for instance, 1 Timothy 5:17-18 and Luke 10:5-7. Ministry, if done right, is hard work, honest work...and ministers need financial support in order to devote themselves fully to the ministry. Do they need to be rich? No. But they're more effective as ministers if they can do it full time and not have to work a whole separate job on the side. Their marriages and families are healthier for it, too. I've often wondered if having a husband/father with both a job and a high-responsibility "calling" in the Morg (thinking of bishop or higher) is not somehow harmful to a family, even though it's considered an honor.

At least it wasn't good for the ones who responded.

The idea that the church has no payed clergy is a lie.

Seminary teachers in Utah and Ca, Institute teachers, religion teachers at the church schools, and 70's and higher are all salaried employees.

and that the Lord qualifies those called. A vial of olive oil and the laying on of hands is supposed to be bigger and better than any kind of professional skills a trained, paid leader could possess.

Of course, that's rubbish, and they'd know that if they had ever seen a trained, professional clergyman in action.

Recently a dear friend of mine had a heart attack while we were in the studio doing some recording. It was one of the most terrifying experiences of my life, and far worse for his wife who had to make a 30 minute drive to the hospital by herself wondering if her husband would even be alive by the time she got there. Her pastor followed soon after and was more helpful in their time of need than I ever thought a clergyman could be.

I'm not a believer and I'm not shopping for a congregation, but seeing that man in action made me understand the value of having a "church home". While I ran errands to help out as best I could, he comforted the family, helped interpret medical information and was an outstanding support during the decision-making process. He kept everyone calm and comfortable and made arrangements with other church members to get the family the support they needed to get through the whole ordeal.

It really was a beautiful thing.

That kind of skill takes training and experience. I've known some pretty good LDS bishops, as far as they go, but the fact is they are amateurs.

Thanks for hsaring that. It is true... so many pastors do tremendous things for families who are at the hospital days on end. They don't send someone else. It is part of their responsibilities and families expect to see their pastor. Then the rest of the church gets involved to help the pastor out. That is the way it works in most churches I have been a part of.

D. Michael Quinn's "The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power," states the following:

"In 1884 church president John Taylor limited bishops to 8 percent of tithing they collected (now primarily cash), while stake presidents got 2 percent of tithing collected by all the bishops of the stake. In 1888 Wilford Woodruff established set salaries for stake presidents and provided that a stake committee would apportion 10 percent of collected tithing between the bishops and the stake tithing clerk. At April 1896 general conference, the First Presidency announced the end of salaries for local officers, in response to the decision of the temple meeting 'to not pay Salaries to any one but the Twelve.'53

"Nevertheless, ending salaries to stake presidents in 1896 was temporary. For a while stake presidents and their counselors were allowed to draw 'from the tithing fund . . . no more than the limit which had been previously specified, and not to entertain the idea that a stipulated compensation attached like a salary to certain offices in the Church.' By April 1897 the First Presidency spoke about 'the subject of compensation to presiding men' in a meeting with stake presidents and other local officers. The First Presidency urged 'the brethren to give their services so far as possible to the church without remuneration.' In 1898 'the regular 10% of tithing [was] allowed Bishops and clerks for handling the same,' but the First Presidency balked at allowing even more to cover expenses for supplies.54

"By 1904 set salaries were back again for stake presidents, who were allowed $300 per year.55 As late as 1910, local officers continued to receive 10 percent of locally collected tithing 'for handling tithes.'56 Recently a Mormon said that his father received a cash allowance as bishop in the 1920s, which was a later period of such compensation than my own research has verified.57

"In addition, since the 1880s stake presidents and bishops of long tenure had received retirement allowances in monthly or annual payments.58 In 1901 even the parsimonious church president Lorenzo Snow said that a financially struggling stake president 'ought to receive his remuneration after he was released as well as before.' Retirement allowances for stake presidents continued into the early 1900s.59"

http://signaturebooks.com/2010/10/excerpt-extensions-of-power/#hide

Thanks FD. What I am extrapolating here is that the morg rode on the coat tails of the benefits of labor laws. Once people had free time then the crutch could claim it. When people worked on farms sun up to sun down 7 days a week to feed a family, men could not provide free labor to the crutch. Same with the hours of factory workers. The early part of the 20th century brought leisure time which the morg usurped as free labor for them. just another way the crotch learned to screw over the sheeple for the profit.

Irritated the heck out of them when I pointed out that they don't seem inspired enough by their God to know when they're appointing an abuser or not and that maybe some real training would help them to at least HELP their congregation.

Then, of course, it was all about how bitter and angry I am about their imaginary friend. ;)

Everyone over the rank of stake president does get paid in the morg.

It's the idiots in the trenches who work for free.

The untrained clergy are in tune with the Will of God, in tune wit hthe Spirit and have direct revelation as Priesthood holders of the Lords only true chruch.

The rest of humanity is led hither and yon by the understandings of men, and by the money hungry priest who gets paid for his efforts, and will lead anyone astray if it means getting an extra dollar.

Meanwhile, tyhe Lords annointed humbly accept the calling and the responsibility to hear and proclaim the word of God as it falls from His lips.

King Benjamin also points out that he has served the people and worked with his own hands to earn a living, thus not tempted to lord over his people for money.

And that's all well and good, but trained clergy have a lot more to offer than some guy who does church leadership as a part time job.

As an Elders Quorum President I taught a class on this very topic years ago, and I stood there and actually claimed that Mormon clergy were heavenly inspired, while hospital or other clergy were merely trained psychologists and rather thasn ministering in the spirit, they were manipulating people psychologically. Boy was I a dumass!

Since that time I have learned better. For instance, a friend of mine recently completed his three year training to become an ordained minister. Three years! He had to study Greek and Latin in order to get the real understanding of the scriptures, he had to study psychology in order to assist people according to their needs, and he had to do assistant ministry until he could prove himself. And then, he had to write a thesis.

And yet, all a Bishop has to do is be chosen for his experience in leadership, or at least have a had few callings, be faithful in all his duties and be financially well off, or at least a good job where he isn't distracted by stressing about money (or is it because he's a really profitable tithe payer?)

And as far as having the mantle of revelation, discernment and Common Judge in Israel, well we all know how well that works from one Bishop to the next...

As posted by The Man in Black:

Beloved Brothers and sisters. It is that special time of month once again. Sisters, you know exactly what I'm talking about. I am of course talking about that special time of the month when we share our love, feelings and hygiene products. Brother's and sisters I know with every fiber of my being that the Church is true. Joseph Smith was a true prophet and he translated the Book of Mormon for our day. It is the literal word of God and I bear testimony of it's truth. Some of you may have noticed that today is April 1st. That's purely a coincidence.

I had a very special experience this week, one that by no means implies that you are less special than I am but feel free to assume that if you'd like to because that's why I even mentioned it. This week I received a personal witness of the divinity of my underwear. After reading D & C Sec 132, I got on my knees and was pondering specifically the part about, “ten virgins” when I had something of a vision or a dream as it were. In it, I heard the voice of our beloved savior and redeemer. He said, “well hung thy good and faithful servant.” Thou hast been faithful over a few women. I will make thee ruler over many.” I awoke a bit shaken and somehow wet from the dream.

Now dear brothers and possessions, I can't be entirely sure why the Lord is proud of my choice of underwear, but I suspect it was because I have been so good to my boys. I love my boys and give them all the tender loving care a father should give his children. I protect them at all costs. I play with them lovingly and frequently. I give them lots of attention. Also, I always bought the nylon mesh garments to give them that little extra bit of freedom and breathing room that they seem to enjoy so much.

I feel compelled now by the spirit to say a few things now that I really wish I didn't have to say because it may hurt some of you, but I will be the bigger man and bring up the topic that needs to be brought before the body of the ward. Brothers and objects we need to do a better job of holding on to the rod. God's path is clear. Straight is the way and narrow is the gate. If we do not hold to the rod I fear that many of us will find ourselves missing the mark. We need to grab hold of what the Lord has given us and we must lengthen our strides. We need to magnify our callings. The time has come to stand a little taller, be more firm, and be more true to our special endowments. I guess what I'm saying is that we need to raise the bar.

We can all do our part to raise the bar. Little things make big differences. Like wearing modest non-revealing clothing. Avoid that. There is also the power of the laying on of hands. Let us all be watchful least we fall into temptation. Never forget that your body is a temple, and never forget that every temple can now be seen photographed inside and out, on-line. So treat your body like a temple and post those college pictures you have locked in that safe under your bed on Facebook already.

Brother's and chattel I cannot emphasis enough the importance of your underwear. It is God's true and unchanging underwear. You have been instructed to wear it through your life. You were informed that it is a shield and a radioactive protection to you. This could not be more true. You will not fall into temptation while wearing garments. Garments are more effective birth control than halitosis.

When they were driven from the garden God the Father gave Adam “coats of skins” to cover his nakedness, which totally means that Adam wore leather underwear. But what matters to me is that this also means that Eve wore leather underwear. And I bet it was tight, like Kate Beckinsale in Underworld. I can't be sure but it was probably delicious to the taste and very desirable. At a minimum Kate Beckinsale is.

So brothers and broodmares, I'd like to bear my testimonkey that I know I am wearing God's underwear. It is tight and made of leather. Now I will go and get Eve to partake.

I see I've only rambled for half the meeting now so I'll wrap this up in the next few days or so, but I never did get a chance to thank Brother Mobegone for his testimony last moth about “the animal sacrifices” in my back yard. You are a funny man Brother Mobegone. I laughed. We all laughed. Why didn't you come? It was a great barbecue and thank you for advertising it for me.

I speak now somewhat to the youth of the ward. Dear youth...

(Interrupted from someone in the audience).

“Hi I'm Chris Hansen with Dateline NBC and we're doing a story on...”

INTHENAMEUFJESUSCHRISTAMEN.

Thank RaptorJesus I wasn't drinking anything when I read this!

It allows for everyone to have responsibility- a buy in-so they are invested instead of being an observer.

Maybe being a participant seems to add involvement more than always listening to the same guy all the time?

Like it matters if someone has special training to make up things about an afterlife or not.

I do think it matters if people are trained to actually counsel people who are screwed up. But then that's what therapists are for. Most of the time religion creates the disease and then claims to have the cure, IMO.

Would you rather see a well paid person like Benny Hinn or a clueless Mormon bishop at the pulpit? Frankly I can think of lots of trained, paid clergy doing damage as bad as any untrained Mormon.

It almost killed me. Went through a rough patch - will call it what it was a mental breakdown - went to bishop told him what I was going through crying all the time not sleeping for months not even with ambien. Not once did he suggest I go see a professional. Total incompetence is what you get. I remember always hearing would you rather have leaders that go to school and are trained or ones that are led by the spirit of God. Geesh!

That is so ridiculous. They go to seminary because they were led BY GOD to go there, dumb Mormon arses!!!

JoD3:360 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As an Elders Quorum President I taught a class on
> this very topic years ago, and I stood there and
> actually claimed that Mormon clergy were heavenly
> inspired, while hospital or other clergy were
> merely trained psychologists and rather thasn
> ministering in the spirit, they were manipulating
> people psychologically. Boy was I a dumass!
>
> Since that time I have learned better. For
> instance, a friend of mine recently completed his
> three year training to become an ordained
> minister. Three years! He had to study Greek and
> Latin in order to get the real understanding of
> the scriptures, he had to study psychology in
> order to assist people according to their needs,
> and he had to do assistant ministry until he could
> prove himself. And then, he had to write a
> thesis.

Oh dear me. That is embarrassing. The one thing that amazes me about the morg is its ability to put blinders on its church members. I added "church" before "members" in the previous sentence because I had a really bad visual with peter priesthoods with blinders on their members, you know their private members. However, given the sexual repression in the morg, they DO put blinders on their private members. Maybe this could be a new temple ceremony? The blinding of the single eyed (and single minded) Satan? Hey, LDS, I thought of it first!!

In my experience, I'll take schooled counseling over God-ordained anytime. God has really poor decision-making skills. By the way, home come God always needs money, but we're expected to manage ours?

I have the distinct impression that He's a dumbass. He probably dropped out of deity school. Just my luck to get a loser god.

I bet the other gods put a "damn me" sign on my god's back. He was lucky to get an outer ring solar system, which He has thoroughly screwed up. His representatives on His planet are a-holes. He runs years behind human science. We'd be much better off without Him. I wish He would F off and Die.

It's a well known psychological phenomenon called insufficient justification in which we are looking for rational reasons to do the things we do. If you are paid to do something, that becomes an integral part of the reason why you are doing it. If I can coax someone to do something without pay, then they are going to look else where to find their rationalization. In the context of a Bishop's job he's going to have dig deeper and of course one of the things he's going to latch onto is the thing with which he's been brainwashed his whole life: that it's all True with a capital T.

Also he's required to bear testimony often. The more he parrots this the more he's going to believe it, because making public declarations of things we don't really believe causes too much cognitive dissonance. The thought "I must believe it, because I told everyone I did" is probably quite common. Never mind that they've never had anything more than a warm fuzzy feeling.

Some possible reasons:
If they are not getting paid, they are doing it for purely spiritual reasons. What do they have to gain by lying if they are not benefiting directly?

There is a perception that all of the members donation is going to spread the gospel not make someone rich.

It was a point of distinction from the "fallen" Christian religions who the church portrayed as the hirelings of Satan.

You cannot serve God and Mammon.

If they are not getting paid then the members should not expect to be paid for their volunteer service either.

First of all, they are not clergy. The unpaid workers cannot deviate from the manual, the handbook, etc. They do not exercise personal discretion requiring inspiration about what to teach, say, etc, like other real pastors do.

That aside, here's a reason against unpaid coerced labor...oh, and you do agree it is coercion when someone tells you God has called you to a position, ok, just wanted to make sure we're on the same page.

People who are coerced to volunteer are likely to NOT magnify their callings. They are very likely to phone it in. How bad is that? Well, it has cost the lives of boys who had LDS scout leaders. It turns out that a huge percentage of the boys who have died in scouts over the last few years have been LDS. They used to think it was because Utah was a harsh terrain; however, it didn't matter what state they lived in. If they were LDS, they were much more likely to die.

The independent variable turned out to be the fact that LDS "volunteer" scout leaders are called rather than freely volunteering. The boys' deaths almost to the last one were caused by negligence on the part of the adult supervising. The Boy Scouts are very worried about this and as the information is spreading, so are parents.

It may be a moot point because Mormonism is spiritual death anyway, but don't let these people take your children on field trips, to amusement parks, etc. They are not really there because they love kids.

Anagrammy

When we've done summer treks in Utah and the southwest, and camped on Nat. Forest, NPS or BLM land. Rangers would not give us the time of day.

Until I told them that we are not mormon scouts.

Then everything changes. We are given the benefit of the doubt of not being a bunch of incompetent boobs.

This has happened several times.

Real Boy Scout leaders, the ones who are in it for the kids, can smell a phony. They have only contempt for conscripts, kind of like the rank and file military feel about mercenaries.

And for this, they think, boys die.

Anagrammy

But there are a ton of people out there proclaiming to have the solution to whatever ails you at the moment. Can't say any one is better or worse than any other. Unfortunately. Gotta love human nature.

That is what it is....they pocket the money they would give to clergy. But why would anyone give money to Bishops who have no training? And why would Bishops do a big job without being paid? I guess some do out of brainwashing. But I read here some pretty sorry stories of the way Bishops act and don't act....guess they just don't feel a need to assist all. Since they have no training I guess that is why the biggies feel there is no need to pay them for their duties. They DON'T go to seminary because they really aren't religious leaders. They are a figurehead. Given a title but it lacks substance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2011 03:06AM by honestone.

I was a tithe payer once. My family in need, asked for
help, was refused. my brother in law, drug addict rocked
up, inactive since a teen ager, goes to the bishop and
asked for 50 dollars, and gets it, because bishop wanted
him to come back to church. Of course he didnt.

What an amatuer bishop. tho my brother in law had a heart
attack 10 years later and died, chocking on vomit,drugged
out of his brain.

My last bishop before out of the church, terminated me
attending, because of my biopola depression claimed by
revelation god didnt need mental illness in the church.
A hug would of fixed the problem.

What an asshole bishop amaturer, italian marfia mob
bloodline, Dianella Perth Western australia kept getting
all the positions and callings, from father to son.
The father led a few of the leaders to sucicide and one
missionary also when the father was called as mission pres
who sent the boy home for having a wet dream that cost
him being allowed to marry in temple and his feonci family
dumped him as dishonerable and was shunned..

Father Mason was a monster and his son years later
Tim Mason from Perth Australia, by blood line gets the
calling and out goes those who didnt fit into his
marfia wog italian power over the people shit just like
his father. I who kept the word of wisdom when thrown
out of his ward and later stake because he then came
up as stake president god forbid, led me to drugs
and attacked him. That day I lost every friend in lds
I grew up with because they all claimed he was a man
of god the stupid asshole members.

To this day there is no way back. The church is run by
power hungury freaks. Hope more bishops and leaders die

fuck em. I hate their guts.Their revelation cost me my family as their word is more important than my word. My mental depression (biological genetic) the church discriminated against me sooner or later. Tho I must forgive in time.

Larry..

So sorry how you were treated. They have no time for people with "issues". You have mental problems becuase you are not praying enough, good enough, and you don't pay enough. Hogwash. Bishops seem to put people down more than lift you up. And it is all about how you can provide ($$$$$) for the church.

You got that right. Mormon's who do the job of Bishop are really stupid to do it without pay.

'...do Mormons think...'

There's your answer, right there...

My husband thinks it's better to receive council from untrained volunteers because they are more humble, are more willing to work things out with you because they don't have all the answers and because there is no monetary reward for telling you what you want to hear. They can tell you what they believe is best, according to the spirit, said DH.

That's when the argument began!:) I told him about people who weren't trained to listen or ask the right questions, people who arrogantly claim messages from God but don't know what they are talking about it, people who are impatient with problems because they don't know how to solve problems etc. Then I won the argument by saying it was practically doctrine that people only leave because they are offended so how did DH figure a bishop WOULDN'T tell someone what they wanted to hear, in order not to offend them. Since offending someone is practically guaranteed to make them leave and quit paying their 10 percent then the lower tithing in the ward would make the bishop look bad to his superiors.

DH went away grumpy but he's still speaking to me. Yea!

for his church. He has a doctorate in theology plus hours and hours of training in counseling. I know how well he can deal with people in crisis; he is highly skilled at what he does.

It's not like he was a used-car salesman and then somebody waved a magic wand over his head and said "abracadabra" or something. He's had a lot of training and a lot of experience.

I don't understand why Mormons don't feel that this is important. I've been around too many bishops who don't know their ear from their elbow, and yet they presume to "counsel" people who are in crisis. PHOOEY!!!