...Him of it completely???

Start spreadin' the news...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1OXAi7rNMg

Enquiring minds wanna know!!!

Or so it seems to me...

A Q-15 consorting with a Woman of the Night? How Christ-like!


They didn't really 'do it'. She was just lonely.


Here are the available facts regarding the last apostle to be excommunicated, Richard R. Lyman:

   In 1943, the First Presidency discovered that Lyman had long been cohabiting with a woman other than his legal wife (to whom he'd been married since 1896!).

   In 1925, Lyman began his relationship with Anna Jacobsen Hegsted, which he defined as a plural marriage. Unable to trust anyone to officiate at the wedding due to the church's ban on the practice, Lyman and Hegsted exchanged vows secretly. By 1943, both were in their seventies.

   (The word on the street is that J. Rueben Clark caught wind of the matter and ordered the then SLC Chief of Police to investigate. Lyman was followed to his 2nd wife's residence where the coppers allowed the couple to get settled in for the night, then burst into the residence and arrested Lyman, in his comfy PJs.)

   Lyman was excommunicated on November 12, 1943, at age 72; at the time, his legal wife, Amy B. Lyman, was the general president of the Relief Society.

   (Here I think it's interesting: Did 1st wife, Amy (I just shuddered...) know about the second wife? Of course she did! WTF, man! He was spending nights with the 2nd wife! Was she cool with it? ...That I can't answer. But if she had ratted him out, she had to know she would lose her social standing and become 'pitied.')

   The Quorum of the Twelve provided the newspapers with a one-sentence announcement, stating that the grounds for excommunication was a violation of the law of chastity, which was the standard interpretation of new plural marriages performed since the 1904 Second Manifesto. (Plural marriages performed between the First Manifesto in 1890 and the Second Manifesto were tolerated by the church.)

   After the excommunication, J. Reuben Clark worried that Lyman might join the Mormon fundamentalist movement.
   --https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_R._Lyman


But he didn't: "Lyman was rebaptized in 1954 at age 83, and his full priesthood blessings were restored posthumously in 1970. (He died in 1963)"
   --ibid.


One is forced to ponder, was Lyman a member of the Order of the 2nd Anointing? If he was, then the sin next to murder gets you ex'd and you lose the 2nd Anointing's force and effect!

The same for James Hamula...


So the answer to your question seems to be that sexual relations outside the bonds of temple matrimony will get you Exed and you'll lose the blessings of the 2nd Annoying...

That's my best guess!

I'm not sure.

Doctrinally the 2A remains valid unless one commits the sin against the Holy Ghost. That would seem to remain the case even if a recipient commits adultery and is consequently excommunicated. Excommunication is partly a political tool used to fend off political problems and in such circumstances I don't think it would invalidate the ritual.

I'm sure Tom Phillips could shed light on this.

Yes, the claim is that only the sin agianst the HG invalidates the second anointing.

But EOD also posted this

"Lyman was rebaptized in 1954 at age 83, and his full priesthood blessings were restored posthumously in 1970. (He died in 1963)"

Even if excommunication voided the second anointing, the restoration of priesthood blessings might well restore it.

I, too, would like to hear what Tom Phillips has to say about the matter.

I admire and respect Tom Phillips, bloody accent and all, but he is only an authority in this matter to the extent of his first-hand information.

Keep in mind that with nothing 'revealed' in the standard works regarding the operation of the 2nd Annoying, it's whatever the top dog says it is, and each top dog may have a different opinion...I mean, revelation.

Look at tithing, or sealings/cancellation of sealings, even the temple ceremony. They all change.

When it's sent down in clear print, like the sacrament prayers, it remains a constant. When it's based on custom, tradition and how it's remembered, then things can be fluid. They are fluid!

The temple ceremony, the script and the actions taken, were never written down before the death of Joju. When it came time for the Grand Opening of the St. George temple, a meeting was called so that people could compare their recollections of the ceremony and finally, a version was agreed upon and written down for use in the new temple and those that followed. And they keep changing that!

After all, it's all make-believe, so coming up with different versions/interpretations should do naught but make exmos burst out in further laughter.


...that's how I see it.

>After all, it's all make-believe, so coming up with different versions/interpretations should do naught but make exmos burst out in further laughter.

That is the real point.

President Nelson has cleverly said the restoration of the church is ongoing. That’s basically saying the prophet can change things. I can say this about the church. It has more concern over it’s finances and retaining it’s tithing paying members than it does about it’s dogma.

I think the purpose of the second anointing is to bond the church leadership into a pact that puts the church above all else. It’s like mobsters being sworn into the mob. Anything you do, even if it’s bad to protect the organization will be forgiven.

I don’t think this was meant to be a free pass to live a worldly lifestyle. I don’t think the church leadership are doing coke and hookers in the temple. I think they are real careful to protect their image. If the hypocracy became too obvious it would do a huge amount of damage to church.

I guess what I am asking is, is the restoration of priesthood blessings really required? Doctrinally adultery cannot invalidate the 2A, so the excommunication shouldn't matter. In effect, recipients of the the ordinance are beyond the reach of church punishment.

It works like a diplomatic passport. You can tear up Kolob parking tickets, which the parking angels hate. You can also visit the lower kingdoms whenever you like. So it’s a nice perk to have in the CK even if it won’t prevent excommunication on Earth:

My guess is that that is correct. Excommunication is a parking ticket to people who have had their 2A and refrained from renouncing it all publicly.

The only 'sin' that invalidates the second anointing is the 'unpardonable sin' which is defined as denying the Holy Ghost or shedding innocent blood depending on which quote from JS or Bruce R. McConkie you cite.

For any other 'sin' you commit you will be subjected to the buffetings of Satan, but will eventually be exalted.

However, since the celestial kingdom, exaltation and Satan do not exist it is entirely irrelevant. It is made up nonsense that is only important to us because we are exmormons.

Yes, it is all make-believe. But it is "our" make-believe, our past, and hence interesting.

Thanks for the insights, Tom.

Hi Tom...thanks for stepping in!

Yes...but...all the while this Q-12 is contemplating philandering with said prostitute isn't the Holy Ghost chiming away in his brain that this is wrong and you better not do it and by proceeding to do so doesn't said Q-12 just therefore THEN essentially DENY the promptings of and sin against the Holy Ghost?

Or so it seems to me...

I don't think so, otherwise every sin would be classed as the unpardonable sin. To deny the Holy Ghost one must have had the heavens open up to you and have a testimony of the church that is indelible. Then to turn around and deny that 'witness'is to deny the Holy Ghost, the unpardonable sin.

However, you may be right because this is the church's definition https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/unpardonable-sin?lang=eng

Unpardonable Sin
See also Blaspheme, Blasphemy; Holy Ghost; Murder; Sons of Perdition

The sin of denying the Holy Ghost, a sin that cannot be forgiven.

Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men, Matt. 12:31–32 (Mark 3:29; Luke 12:10).

It is impossible for those who were made partakers of the Holy Ghost to renew them again unto repentance, Heb. 6:4–6.

If we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Heb. 10:26.

If ye deny the Holy Ghost and know that ye deny it, this is a sin which is unpardonable, Alma 39:5–6 (Jacob 7:19).

They have no forgiveness, having denied the Only Begotten Son, having crucified him unto themselves, D&C 76:30–35.

The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven, which is shedding innocent blood after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, D&C 132:26–27.

Joseph Smith said:-
The Sin Against the Holy Ghost

All sins shall be forgiven except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. When a man begins to be an enemy to this work, he hunts me; he seeks to kill me, and never ceases to thirst for my blood. He gets the spirit of the Devil-- the same spirit that they had who crucified the Lord of Life,-- the same spirit that sins against the Holy Ghost. You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance: they make open war like the Devil, and awful is the consequence.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2020 05:12AM by Tom Phillips.

"But if she had ratted him out, she had to know she would lose her social standing and become 'pitied.'"

Even I did that, but also because I didn't want the leaders in my business. I have an article I got from a magazine that is about "Why They Stay."

The book "In Sacred Loneliness" is all about hanging onto the social standing. I was actually pitied all my life in the lds church EXCEPT when I was with my gay husband. I was envied as everyone loves him and wanted him, including some of the married ones. They still do. The women just can't help themselves around him.

I refuse to ever be pitied again.

DID THE COPS HAVE A WARRANT?

No, they did not have a warrant. What they had was their chief telling them to do what the Prophet ordered: get the goods on the suspect. Which they did, in the manner they'd been trained.

Wouldn't being caught with a Q12 damage a prostitute's reputation? I mean, which one has the more honest job?