I have seen a post with a link about a non Mormon girl being denied a place on a student leadership council in Idaho for not being a Mormon.I have heard stories of complaints form non Mormons in Mesa Arizona,Rexburg,and Nevada about employment or workplace discrimination.It seems it is easier to be a non Mormon or even ex Mormon in Salt Lake City than in some parts of Idaho.

What is the worst and most awkward place in the world to live if I was not an ally to real TBm devotees or an ultimate tbm ?Where would I most of all be discriminated against or teated like a criminal for not being a tbm?

I remember Cache Valley sucked when I went to the University.

Utah Valley hands down which is where I live. That being said I think non or ex Mormons can thrive in Utah Valley but if you have a choice there are better places to live, Salt Lake Valley is much better and the Park City area is very close to normal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2015 11:21PM by scotchipman.

With my TBM ex-wife.

Ba-zing!

Your response made my day!

North Korea. Somalia. Afghanistan.

Void K. Packer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> North Korea. Somalia. Afghanistan.

Sometimes I wonder if everything we hear and see about North Korea is just anti-DPRK propaganda, while the nation itself is the first true utopia. Probably not.

And Afghanistan... things seem to have mellowed out. Afghan expats fly home whenever they get a chance. Not so much war there now.

Still, I agree with you. Treatment of ex-mo/no-mos is nothing compared to the horror of everyday life for a lot of people around the world (State of Deseret under BY would be hell though).

"Sometimes I wonder if everything we hear and see about North Korea is just anti-DPRK propaganda, while the nation itself is the first true utopia. Probably not."

Maybe this will help answer that question:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technology-blog/dramatic-satellite-photo-shows-north-korea-near-total-013138805.html

And there's this:

http://www.thewire.com/global/2012/04/environment-so-bad-north-korea-theyll-even-let-americans-help/50653/

And this:

http://news.yahoo.com/deforestation-reveals-n-korea-artillery.html

"Deforestation has been cited as one of the major environmental problems facing North Korea as North Koreans resort to scraps of wood as fuel for heating and cooking."

Sounds more like hell than Utopia.

There is a back story to this:

My philosophy has always been that if you have a specific destination, and you go just a bit further on, then over a lifetime you will experience all sorts of places and situations that you would have "lost" if you had never gone to them.

For example: In the first years of our marriage, my husband and I had a standing trip every year to Palm Springs for New Year's Eve/New Year's Day (and every year, we explored places fairly nearby, but just a bit "further out" from where we had gone before).

One New Year's trip there we were tremendously disappointed when our [mutual] editor and his wife, who we knew well and had traveled with before to other places, did not meet us as they had promised...to the point where, the following year, we decided to go somewhere ELSE. Had to be at least fairly close, so we chose Las Vegas...but I wanted to go that extra bit further on, so I said: "Let's go to St. George, Utah and see what New Year's THERE is like!!!" (You know where this is going...don't you???)

So we got motel reservations in St. George (my husband had never been there, and if I had, it was when I was so little that I didn't remember anything about it).

When we finally arrived at our motel, it was deep night---and the St. George Temple (for reasons unknown to me) was fully lit up, and the view DOMINATED the town. (I know, big surprise, right???) But for my husband, who had angrily left the Catholic Church as a full adult (he had been raised Catholic in what amounted to a Catholic cult in the Midwest), the LDS temple was the most uncomfortable possible reminder of all the years he had suffered (in different ways) as a Catholic. He was NOT happy...and he blamed me, because I had been the one who had looked at the map and said: "Let's go to St. George!!!"

The next day, the town was dead...and we finally found a Disney film playing at a local theatre. The theatre was packed with LDS families...and that became a nightmare, too.

My husband said he needed a Manhattan (he used to drink mixed drinks back then, and Manhattans were the "in" thing to drink in his group of friends). We went to what we were pretty sure was the nicest restaurant in town (I can't remember the name), and when he ordered a Manhattan, the waitress was uncomfortable as she told us that there was, to our understanding of what she said, no mixed drinks available in regular restaurants in Utah. My husband was DEFINITELY not happy...especially since he thought her explanation of "why" was insane.

It was NOT a happy trip.

My husband talked about how awful that trip was for YEARS afterward.

So my vote for the worst place in the world to live as a non mormon or exmo is St. George, Utah.

And you can tell me all you want about how wonderful "Utah's Dixie" is...and I will STILL think it is the worst place in the world for non Mormons...and I have the memories to prove it!!!

;) ;) ;)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2015 12:33AM by tevai.

Electricity bill footed by the taxpayers until a lawsuit put an end to it.

The most insufferable members of my TBM family live in St. George. Those include my parents and their dependent adult daughters who live in houses owned by my narcissistic father, who lords over them and micromanages their lives. They basically live for him in return for housing.

To me, that would be the worst life imaginable.

Orem

I totally agree with you about SLC. As I heard it put, the gay and exmormon population are being like a rebellious teen telling their parent to "get over itself".

It's the small towns (especially South Utah, Eastern AZ and Idaho) for some reason. Blanding UT, Thatcher AZ, Twin Falls ID, etc... they're not only Mormon overpopulated but also very Redneck, Glen Beck listening/believers, Gun Toting, bigots...

Living and working in Utah Valley, I was fired from my job as soon as I left the cult. My boss went through a charade of drumming up false allegations, while simultaneously admitting (in writing) that I was excellent at my job. Ultimately, the allegations boiled down to me not being a "good fit."

I told him in my exit interview that I knew why he was firing me, that it was based on me not being Mormon anymore. He didn't even bat an eyelid before he said, "How about some severence?" I took the money and ran.

Unfortunately, this was at the lowest point of the recession (2009), and it was devastating, financially, professionally, and emotionally. I spent my retirement savings, went deeply into debt, and prolonged unemployment left me almost suicidal.

My career is back on track now, thank dog, but I don't think I'll ever recover from the financial hit. All because some intolerant asshat ran his government department like a ward.

I lived in Mapleton-Springville area for 20+ years. I felt like an orphan child at a family reunion. Very few people would associate with me, always sticking their nose in my business, wanting me to do work for them free. Very mormon only clannish. When I sold out and was loading up, only one person came to help. So glad to bail out of Utah.

Anywhere there are mormons.
The more there are, the worse it is.

That's true, especially if a business is Mormon-owned, as my mom found out when she worked for a school photography company based out of Provo. While this was in the Vegas area, she only stayed for a season because she wasn't Mormon, and had no interest in converting, even though they pushed their beliefs on her. She also saw some residual racism as some of the Mormon employees didn't like dealing with those who weren't white.

She eventually became a teacher's aid as she was a retired teacher before she moved to Vegas and married her current husband. Even his TBM children were shocked about how she was treated by that photography company, as they're not the type to discriminate against non-Mormons at all.

Raymond, Alberta would be close to the top of that list. My Catholic wife grew up in that shithole and was treated shabbily by the Mormon kids, especially the girls.

Ron Burr

Ah, dear little Raymond. If you're 'horse' or 'sports', your life is supreme. And nepotism runs rampant in that cocksucking shit hole too. There was a new $100,000/yr job created out of thin air for town hall and wouldn't you know it, the mayor's son gets it. Of course mayor is an ex stake president that most worship and bow down to more than their Christ Jesus. Horses, sports, and nepotism - the three TRUE gods of Raymond.

Don't get me started on that asshole GB. Complete disingenuous waste of skin.

Ron Burr

Several years ago I remember two young guys in one of the wards became 'mission age'. Kid 1 was asked if he was ready to send in his mission papers. He told the filthy nazi bishop asshat that he wanted to serve a mission, but also wanted to work a year and save money for it.

Along comes kid2, son of GB. It was common knowledge he had knocked up a gal.

Kid 1 was denied the mission because he wouldn't go right NOW, while nazi asshat bishop forbade him his mission. I guess he eventually left the church. Kid 2? He went off on his mission and 'served with honor'. Girlfriend gave birth to his son while he was 'serving honorably'. LOL!

That's Raymondism in action.

Sounds about right. We've had a south wind lately so we can smell the self righteousness, condescension and horseshit!

RB



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2015 12:52AM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

Here's what's got me scratching my head about that St. George trip: What on earth did you think you'd be doing in St. George for vacation? Is there a ski resort or some sort of activity/tourist attraction/national monument/park, or something to see/do there?

Because I can't, for the life of me, think of what might attract me to a place like St. George Utah, unless there's some thing there that draws people in.

But just "let's go to some random city where there really isn't anything to see or do that we don't have right here in our own town" doesn't really make sense to me.

Now, I do get the idea of going someplace where there isn't much to do because you want to unplug, destress and unwind. This is why I go to the beach a few times a year, but it's the beach. There is a thing to do: go to the beach. Eat seafood. Drink frilly cocktails. Eat seafood and drink frilly cocktails while at the beach.

So what's the draw to St. George?

dogzilla Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's what's got me scratching my head about that
> St. George trip: What on earth did you think you'd
> be doing in St. George for vacation? Is there a
> ski resort or some sort of activity/tourist
> attraction/national monument/park, or something to
> see/do there?
>
> Because I can't, for the life of me, think of what
> might attract me to a place like St. George Utah,
> unless there's some thing there that draws people
> in.
>
> But just "let's go to some random city where there
> really isn't anything to see or do that we don't
> have right here in our own town" doesn't really
> make sense to me.
>
> Now, I do get the idea of going someplace where
> there isn't much to do because you want to unplug,
> destress and unwind. This is why I go to the beach
> a few times a year, but it's the beach. There is a
> thing to do: go to the beach. Eat seafood. Drink
> frilly cocktails. Eat seafood and drink frilly
> cocktails while at the beach.
>
> So what's the draw to St. George?

St. George, Utah was a different demo (demographic group) than any I (or my husband, obviously) "knew" at that time---and it also had at least the possibility of me being FINALLY able to answer some questions I had been mulling over since I was growing up. (My family actually traveled Utah roads quite a bit when I was growing up, due to [mainly] my aunt's business interests [mining, mostly], and also for other reasons I didn't really understand then, and still don't. ;) )

When you are a writer working in mass media (as my husband and I both were at that time) you need to know, and ideally understand, the different demos which make up "your" audience for any specific project. If you don't know your demos, you can easily go wrong in a multitude of unanticipated ways, but if you DO know your demos, you develop an inner "Geiger counter" that works almost automatically to keep your work true to the demos you are "courting" (on behalf of whichever advertisers, etc. are paying for that particular project).

Beginning when I was maybe five or six years old: when it came to Utah demos, I had plenty of confused questions, and not any answers (and I was in my twenties when my husband and I went to St. George on that particular trip).

St. George was an opportunity to try to get some of those (nearly lifelong, for me) questions answered and confusions worked through...and on that level, it actually DID "work."

That lit-up LDS temple was a visual lesson that is still strongly impressed into my consciousness. The LDS-family-packed theatre showing the Disney film (some horse drama involving Glenn Ford, as I remember) was a HUGE (and unforgettably uncomfortable!!!) lesson in popular/mass Utah culture. The restaurant waitress's awkward, and clearly personally uneasy, explanation of Utah alcohol laws was a view into Utah adult life that I would not have understood if I had just read a news or magazine account of peculiar (by non-Utah standards) Utah laws.

"St. George" became my personal benchmark for understanding Utah culture and LDS culture---a marker that could be dialed "up" or dialed "down" as needed for any particular future project, or demo, or area of the state, or time period, but was a real life starting point to understand whatever, in the future, I would NEED to understand in relation to any future project, or future marketing, in any of the relevant aspects.

"St. George"---ALL of it---WAS the "destination" (rather than being the passive locale of a "destination" tourist experience like a scenic or historic park, etc.).

And on that level, it was a VERY "successful" trip.

It was also a very personally difficult trip for my husband, and I had no way of knowing that until we got there. Had I known, I would have chosen the Navajo reservation (which, at that time, I knew only fleetingly), or something else equally unknown which was "nearby," but a bit "further on" from Las Vegas.

What I did NOT want to do was spend that New Year's in Las Vegas. I spent a great deal of my growing up years in Las Vegas, much of it in extremely close proximity to people who were financing (or whatever) my aunt's business activities. Those were very valuable experiences for me, AND I also knew enough about Las Vegas at about age twelve or thirteen to last me for all of the rest of my life...and though I have been back (many times!!!) through the years...to me, Las Vegas is just a place that mostly, I'd rather not go to unless I must (someone I know is appearing there...I have an assignment to do...there is a show or convention there that someone in my immediate family is involved in, etc.).

I'm glad I don't have to live in St. George (or go through there, except in transit), AND I am grateful for all that St. George taught me in just a couple of days, because the lessons I learned during that New Year's trip have enriched my life, and made me a better writer and a better human being, ever since.

And, on that level, the trip my husband and I took there on that particular New Year's holiday was a total success.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2015 12:48PM by tevai.

Oh! You had very good reasons for going there. That answered my question nicely, thank you. And that makes a lot of sense. I've also gone places where people might ask the same of me, and usually the answer is to see a specific person.

Upon doing some research, I discovered there's a lot of National Park land near St. George so I can think of lots of reasons that might appeal to someone on a vacation. Now.

But I had to wonder for a while there. ;>D

I think there is also Snow Canyon (or something like that) that is a state park that I thought was beautiful.

Zion's is ABSOLUTELY beautiful and not far from St. George. People come from all over to see Zion's.

The Church Office Building.

Edit. Oh, LIVE not work, well that would be Orem, Utah or Rexburg, Idaho take your pick.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2015 11:24AM by Elder Berry.

As an older person who abandoned the faith late, I found Utah County to be quite disturbing to live in. Especially among former TBM acquaintances. They gossipped about me and seemed to have concluded that I had "mental issues."