A devout TBM said in church that it was important for gay (she used same sex attracted) Mormon's to have a really strong testimony of Mormonism because if they eventually learned it wasn't true they had given-up any chance of a loving marital relationship with the same sex their whole life for no good reason and that was pretty depressing.

It's hard to imagine anyone answering a question like that with "I know this church is true so just keep your testimony strong". When everyone else in the church is being told endlessly to get married and have lots of kids. It's a pretty big sacrifice with no tangible reward at the end. They are told that their same sex attraction will end in the afterlife and they can marry a woman then.

Being a gay Mormon must be pure hell on earth.

A really good point...very well said.

(I hadn't really thought of it this way before.)

Well done, Pooped!!!

You are taught constantly that the most important purpose on the planet is to find a mate and get married. Then you are taught that gay marriage is the most reprehensible action on the planet. Right next to murder.

So it can be very confusing at times as a gay mormon, especially as a lonely awkward youth with no other support structure or community to listen to.

Gay mormons are mostly an anomaly within the lds church and they have no idea what to do with them.

Happily married homosexuals are despised by the church so much because they are living walking and breathing proof that the church's "gospel" does not work for everyone (or perhaps at all).

Same with those that leave the church and still maintain happy productive lives. The church doesn't know what to do so they make up lies about the groups.

"They are living in sin"
"They gave up on the truth"
"They are secretly unhappy"
"We know a better way to live"
"They are living a lower law"
Ad nauseum.

Being an active gay mormon comes with constant pain and self doubt. All mormons experience the hamster wheel of never being good enough... but for a gay mormon your most basic human desires and needs are made to seem like you are secretly some kind of murderer (since sexual sin and murder are put on the same level of "bad").

It's kind of a mind fuck.

The LDS Church pretends that it asks the same of all its members. You must remain pure and chaste until marriage, and then remain true and faithful to your spouse. They claim that gays have the same obligation, but then fight tooth and nail to make sure that gays cannot marry one another. Even though gay marriage has been legal in Utah for a year now, getting married to someone of your same sex is an excommunicable offense. Even straight people who advocate for gay marriage are under risk of excommunication.

How is it fair to tell someone that he/she must remain celibate and alone for life. It's true that some straight Mormons never marry, but that it is either through choice or circumstances. No one ever took away their hope. Gay people are expected to live as monks and nuns in a cult that worships family and marriage. Even if you remain a true and faithful TBM, pure and chaste your entire life, you will still be looked upon as a person of pity. "Why aren't you married yet?" is something every Mormon over 25 hears over and over again. Brigham Young even said that unmarried men over 27 are a "menace to society." Sorry, but I'm about as menacing to society as a house cat.

Being the weak human being that I am, I'd be more inclined to live an openly gay lifestyle my whole life and if I still believed in Mormonism at the end of the day (or if the Mormon church hadn't already altered its doctrine...again) just repent and get baptized or re-baptized. Makes more sense to me.

P.S. If TSCC baptizes you after death in the temple anyway, what's the big worry? All your sins will be washed away and you can start over again as a heterosexual. And if TSCC isn't true, you didn't sacrifice your happiness for nothing.

But if you're a Mormon then you've HAD your chance.

So better to NOT be a Mormon and have the opportunity to repent
in the afterlife and get dead-dunked then.

So to sum up. According to Mormon doctrine it is better to NOT
join the Mormon Church in this life.

Take THAT, MTC.

I have a hard time understanding why a gay person would want to be mormon. It makes me sad for them that they have miss out on some very important things to stay in good standing.

It's really a matter of priorities. Everyone makes choices in life, and everyone must deal with some level of self control or another. No adult is forced to become or remain a Mormon. If you wish to embrace a lifestyle that is forbidden by Mormonism, it is your choice, not something you are forced into.

The more accurate way to phrase this topic is, "If I'm a gay Mormon, I must choose to a) remain celibate, b) violate the edicts of my church, or c) leave my church."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2015 02:35PM by Tall Man, Short Hair.

where there are many other churches who accept and love their gay brothers and sisters as equals.

I'm not saying it is a simple thing to feel shunned by your church and your family, and just pick up and try another church. But the Mormon church is like the Catholic church in this regard: zero tolerance.

Life is too short and we really don't know what is on the other side. God made gay people too and you owe it yourself and your Creator to live an authentic life.

I'm not sure that I'd call the Catholic church zero tolerance. Sure, they don't do gay marriage. But I've seen plenty of gay couples attending church openly with each other. The Catholic church doesn't excommunicate all that much. Plenty of Catholics are "living in sin." Your average Catholic wouldn't think twice about having a sexual relationship outside of marriage.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2015 06:35PM by summer.

Your average Catholic? I think we might be wandering into no true Scotsman territory here.

How about gays and lesbians who teach at Catholic private scholls and are fired for being gay? that happens even in Washington state, where the state constitution prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation. Catholic scholls make headlines every time they do this, and they do it a lot.

As for, "your average Catholic wouldn't think twice about having a sexual relationship outside their marriage" that's absurd.

It's not always so black and white.

We are talking about a group which has a strict regimen for training (some call it brainwashing) people right from the age of nursery.

Guilt tactics.

Family pressure.

High pressure sales force.

High pressure activities.

Many people can't even consider the idea of leaving the church due to years of sunk costs, the pressures mentioned above, and their own training from almost birth working against them.

I think most people here know that to say "just leave the church is always an option" is really a misnomer.

Just leaving isn't a decision without a lot of consequence and sacrifice in its own right. And some are in situations where it may not even be possible.

It isn't so simple as to just "choose" to leave. I can't imagine growing up gay in the lds church and hearing these messages. What would the rest of us say?

I have an ex-sil who came out to me some years ago--when she realized her brother is gay (my husband). She told me that he should be able to maintain if she was. She is married. It has been an interesting marriage. My ex and I have noted recently how defensive she is of the decision she made. (I would call her husband asexual.) They have both devoted their lives to the lds church. It has also been surprising to us how much of the "dirt" she knows on the church. She has sacrificed all her life to toe the line, but she is very, very defensive. I do believe this is the reason she is still mormon. It HAS TO BE TRUE for her.

Not just "marital love," ANY kind of physical intimacy, married or not.
Because, of course, the church's position is that you can "be" gay, you just can't "act" gay.
Which is absurd.

The truth is the Mormon Church does not want to be a church for everyone. They are an exclusive religion. The Mormon Church wants white families where the parents are between 25 and 50. If you are not married, gay, whatever, you really are not wanted or really welcome to worship the Mormon God. Look around at any normal ward (Mormon Normal) and notice the real lack of older people (those over 55). The older members that may still attend used to be the leaders such as Bishops, SP, etc. The ex leaders are treated with respect but if you were not a former leader, you are not welcomed.

Gays are not welcomed and never have been. While the GA's may act like everyone is welcomed in public, in reality go fuck yourself your not normal by Mormon Standards. Divorce people are not welcomed. Go get married and then come back and if you confess all your sexual sins, you might be welcomed but not really. Remarried couples are also not really welcomed.

Mormons only want those that are PR correct. This is not a church that Jesus built.

Divorced people are not welcomed. AND remarried couples are also not really welcomed.

I agree. Once you've fallen off the chosen path through no fault of your own, you're screwed in mormonism.

And I was single until 27, female, so I got to have that fun time, too.

When my dad asked me when I was going back, I told him how singles are treated. I rendered him speechless. He wasn't all that TBM, but I think he thought I needed the church as I had always been so devout.

Gay people are born gay. God does not want men or women to be alone, without a mate and without intimacy. So being gay is okay with God.

Don't believe that Mormon doctrine bullshit. God doesn't define goodness by what we deny ourselves.

No coffee. No herbal tea. NO FUCKING COCA COLA? No oral sex. No anal sex. No R rated movies. NO PORN? No going out to dinner, a movie or a ball game with family on Sunday? NO WINE? No cigars? No THONGS FOR MY WIFE? NO WAY. NO FUCKING WAY!

I believe God defines us by the good things we create. No the petty shit we deny ourselves of and judge other people by.

The Church used to smugly say, "we have the same rule for
everyone: no sex outside of a legal marriage" (which is not
true, by the way).

Then they would add injury to insult by working hard behind the
scenes to make same-sex marriage illegal.

Now that SSM is legal in a majority of states they have had to
modify their "same for everyone" rule to legal heterosexual
marriages.

Since they now have abandoned their "heterosexual marriage
cures homosexuality" stance, this means that they expect gay
people to be lonely and unfulfilled their whole life.

And the kicker is that it's a group of married, heterosexual
men who are making these rules.

baura Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Church used to smugly say, "we have the same
> rule for
> everyone: no sex outside of a legal marriage"
> (which is not
> true, by the way).
>
> Then they would add injury to insult by working
> hard behind the
> scenes to make same-sex marriage illegal.
>
> Now that SSM is legal in a majority of states they
> have had to
> modify their "same for everyone" rule to legal
> heterosexual
> marriages.
>
> Since they now have abandoned their "heterosexual
> marriage
> cures homosexuality" stance, this means that they
> expect gay
> people to be lonely and unfulfilled their whole
> life.
>
> And the kicker is that it's a group of married,
> heterosexual
> men who are making these rules.

I think you'll find that most people are not defined by their sexuality and are seldom held captive by it. Expecting people to remain chaste outside of marriage is not exclusively a "Mormon thing." Many mainstream religions encourage limiting sex to the marital relationship. Most of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam will never accept homosexual marriage as sanctioned by God. This is not bigotry or hatred. It's moral teaching that's been around for millennia right up there with prohibitions on greed, theft, and marital infidelity.

Homosexuality is not alone in preventing people from entering sanctioned relationships. Physical conditions and social deficits can also serve to isolate people so they are unable to find a mate. Nobody is sentenced to a life of loneliness by a church. A harsh personality, a physical deformity, or something as simple as being obese may chart a life that will never include finding a mate.

It really boils down to the fact that life is not fair. Everybody has unfulfilled desires and sorrows in their life. As we mature, most of us learn to fill those voids with other things. Humans are amazing in our ability to adapt, and we never need to accept our current deficits as lifelong baggage.

Blaming the church for loneliness is counterproductive. If you decide you wish to pursue a lifestyle that is prohibited by church teachings, it's time to either abandon the lifestyle or abandon the church. You are in control, not the church.

My but you are tiresome TMSH.

Sexuality is an important facet of an holistic human experience. Denying, repressing, or ignoring it tends to cause it to be expressed in unhealthy, dysfunctional venues.

Enough already with your noble suffering nonsense.

Pooped Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A devout TBM said in church that it was important
> for gay (she used same sex attracted) Mormon's to
> have a really strong testimony of Mormonism
> because if they eventually learned it wasn't true
> they had given-up any chance of a loving marital
> relationship with the same sex their whole life
> for no good reason and that was pretty
> depressing.
>

That mentality is true for just about every Mormon - maybe not in regards to a loving relationship but look what we gave up for no good reason to be LDS:

Time - Money - Authenticity - A Real Wedding - A Small Family - Being Single - A Career ... geez, the list is endless. And while not everyone wants these things (maybe you didn't want a small family so you didn't give that up) there are a variety of things Mormons live without for no good reason, including a fulfilling marriage because they married a stranger in the temple and feel obligated to endure to the end.

Basically they are saying to everyone "Who you are inside is NOT OK and you need to warp your true self into something we find acceptable," It's outrageous and it's most obviously outrageous when you look at how they treat the gay community. Who gave them the hoop to hold and gave them the right to demand who jumps through it and how? They are so far out of line words fail me.

Pooped Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They are told
> that their same sex attraction will end in the
> afterlife and they can marry a woman then.

Just think how much worse it is for Lesbians. They realize they gave up the potential for having a great marriage AND they realized they never needed to endure a male patriarchy.

Quite a lot of be upset about.