Probably the most fascinating thing I have discovered in my excavation of the truth has been the discovery of early American colonists having a culture of belief in hidden treasures guarded by evil/benign spirits, second sight, occult circles/seals, and the credibility of objects of power, such as stones and branches(dowsing rod).

I haven't lost my faith in God and Christ after all of this. But learning of J.S.'s exploits in money digging and the first accounts given of his uncovering of the plates, makes me think, that if any of it was true and he wasn't just a really imaginative man or a con artist, that the things he saw and did prove the LDS church is born of the Devil, lol.

I've been watching a lot of Dan Vogel's stuff about the history of the church and the nature of the people at the time. Of particular interest is finding out that a couple of the witnesses said they saw the angel and plates with "spiritual eyes" not with the natural eye. And this was considered just as legit at the time.

Well, keep digging. Maybe you’ll question your faith in Occult Magic and the theory that “the devil made him do it”.

I don't have "faith" in occult magic nor do I believe the theory "the devil made him do it."

I was remarking on the inconsistency of doctrine.

Of course the devil made me do it. Otherwise I would have to take responsibility for my actions!

I believe there is some validity in water dowsing, but I've never seen or used it...

Don't forget about the hallucinogenic properties of this plant -

Datura stramonium

Native to North America, it is also called Thorn Apple, Jimson weed, or Jamestown weed.

It has been theorized that JS used substances like this to induce hallucinogenic trips among his followers.

This also explains the extreme nature of the visions and angelic visitations among the early church members.

I hadn't heard anything about that at all. I mostly read from a couple sources that support the idea that early settlers and Americans were very superstitious and believed in enchanted buried treasure guarded by toads and gnomes and other such spirits. And they believed in dreams and visions being reality. If you told someone that an angel or God came to you in a vision, folks would believe you. Joseph also wasn't the only one with a seer stone at the time and in that area of NY and Pa.

There are several posters who constantly link to claims that the Mormons used hallucinogens but if you look closely at the analysis, the most they can come up with is "these plants existed near where there were Mormons so they must haves used them."

The logic is simple:
1) Mormons believe strange shit,
2) Certain hallucinogens make people believe in strange shit,
3) Some of those hallucinogens may have been available to Mormons.

There is no actual evidence, just the observation that it might have happened.

If you have ever tried magic mushrooms you might understand the connection of hallucinogens and early church history more. Even with micro-dose levels psilocybin induces feelings of euphoria and connection. One taking a micro-dose will feel more connected to everything around them and feel a deep sense of the profound nature of existence. Things seem much more meaningful in a trip. In addition one tends to notice the absurdity of the stupid things we worry about. This can sometimes produce the giggles. It is easy to understand how the effects of this plant can be easily used to manipulate people into feeling a deep sense of spirituality or a oneness with god.

Psilocybin actually inhibits parts of the brain, specifically the Default Mode Network. This part of the brain is what produces one's own ego and writes your own history as you move through life. When this is inhibited it is much easier to feel a "oneness" with everything around you. If outside in nature the effect is wonderful. I'm not talking about obvious hallucinations here. Those don't come from Psilocybin unless taking a larger, more heroic dose.

Psilocybin also inhibits the parts of the brain that deal with stereoscopic vision, causing the user's vision to loose a sense of 3d space, effectively becoming wall-eyed. The pupils become dilated and allow in a lot more light, also making colors and scenery feel more vivid.

I understand all that, praydude. There are also other drugs that produce comparable effects.

In some cases where psychoactive substances are used as part of religious activities, they are documented--the Delphic Oracle, some of the ancient Hebrew shrines, shamanic practices in the Americas and Central Asia.

But with Mormonism there are no accounts of using such drugs. The early Mormons talked about alcohol and intoxication but I have never seen anyone mention any psychoactive drugs at all. It's also important to know that you don't need hallucinogens to get religious people to hallucinate. The emotions of group rituals often produce that effect all by themselves.

So until there is actual evidence that Mormons consumed those things--written accounts; traces of substances in foods, drinks, dishes, or storage; evidence from bodies--the most one can say is, "yeah, there is no evidence that Mormons did that but it is possible.

Thanks for writing this, so I don't have to. :)

I'll just add: "It has been theorized" == I don't have any actual evidence, so I'm resorting to vague, unsubstantiated implications

My point is that it is very possible that JS involuntarily dosed his followers with spiked sacramental wine to get them all to trip. Of course there would be no evidence because it was all done in secret.

I found this paper interesting:

http://www.mormonthink.com/files/restoration-sacred-mushroom.pdf

Yeah, I've read that. It is another of the articles that present a mountain of circumstantial evidence and then conclude that it happened.

We know the details of almost every element of early Mormonism, including JS's affairs, his communications with women in secret; we have detailed accounts from his former allies of the various religious and financial frauds, the Danites and their internal deliberations, JS's drinking, smoking, womanizing, etc. We have leading Mormons complaining about the use of alcohol in the Kirtland and Nauvoo temples.

That suggests strongly that some of the defectors would have spoken of hallucinogens if they had seen them used--and for some of the most visionary events, like the Kirkland inauguration, it would have required a lot of people to distribute so much of the drug.

Lots of religions get their followers to do bizarre things, and see bizarre things, without resort to hallucinogens. So until we see written records of believers and/or defectors describing the practice, all we have is a geographical overlap. That's a weak case.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/2020 08:57PM by Lot's Wife.

Psilocybin mushrooms wouldn’t have been available to Joseph. Perhaps Amanita Muscaria, but their effects seem a bit overblown by Gordon Wasson. No matter. The First Vision has all the hallmarks of a complete fabrication. The drug hypothesis of the first vision is so much apologetics.

Tall tales of the Kirtland temple dedication combined with the mass hysteria of the circumstances are as good an explanation as spiking the sacramental wine. The latter would suggest that Joseph was an evil genius. Maybe he just wasn’t that smart. His co-conspirators were the smart ones though.

Datura is sometimes used by witches, but it needs special treatment to remove the atropine. It’s a dangerous way to get high. It’s possible Joseph would have had the occult knowledge.

I have a theory that Joseph was possessed, which might also explain his sexual mania and megalomania. The traumatic near amputation of his leg might have caused a dissociation (or soul fragmentation) which in combination with his genetic predisposition opened the door to demonic possession. There’s not much belief in demons here, but I knew someone who could see them. She saw them a lot when visiting a mental ward.

Why does he need to be possessed to do the things that he did?

The lack of acceptance of demonic possession in modern society is part of a broader set of cultural beliefs. Humans are instruments of possession. They are usually possessed by themselves. There’s no telling who else or what else is in there except perhaps by scientific analysis of the energy signature, which we can’t do yet.

You would have to believe in disincarnate spirits, which were readily accepted up until the 20th century. That’s when the zeitgeist turned a blind eye because the woo stuff tends to disrupt science. The truth about reality will come out when the world is ready.

Great. That doesn't answer the question I asked.

Psilocybin is one thing but Datura needs to be processed in a specific way or it can be lethally toxic. The Don Juan books of Carlos Castaneda describe it in some detail.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2020 09:41AM by siobhan.

This was a great book, I highly recommend it.

Secret Combinations Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847

https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Combinations-Evidence-Counterfeiting-1800-1847/dp/194414109X

It wasn't just early American colonists who believed in those things; even in the 1890's there were still folks who believed that tuberculosis was caused by vampires.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercy_Brown_vampire_incident

No wonder Joe found marks-sorry-converts to Mormonism.

maybe Lehi, Nephi & company brought some marijuana with them..

Washington Irving (Rip Van Wrinkle, Headless Horseman) also wrote several tales of money digging. Tales of the Traveller can be had free at project Gutenberg.

Keep in mind his tales were written in the 1820s and the culture of the times.

Included in his stories is that when near a treasure it often slips away. We see similarities between his stories of treasure hunting and Joseph and companies.

Belief is: believing ANYTHING (foolish) [the lying 'church'] TLC says.

NOT believing in yourself.

Not believing in life!

Just for your 'information' --- seeing without using your natural eyes is something almost everyone can do! Using it to see spirits, something thousands of miles away, etc. is something that requires some 'skill or natural ability'!

To see something without the use of 'natural eyes' is very possible and done by many different forms of psychics and people who use 'seeing without eyes' techniques.

You can experience the 'basics' yourself! Just 'imagine', you can either close or leave your eyes open, seeing your house from the from the front. After you picture that immediately go up a couple hundred feet and 'see' you house just looking at the roof.

The problem is not 'imagining' what you want but trying to 'get information' (visuals of spirits, photos targets, colors, what is in front of your shielded eyes, etc)! Unfortunately, the process is not 'normally' overnight for psychics ----- many start seeing dark shapes, colors, etc. then in theory with practice and 'processes' get clearer and clearer information.

Ahhh, okay. I see! So, Martin Harris and David Whitmer were experienced psychics, along with J.S. That's how they were able to see the angel and the book of plates.

Yes, and like spiritist claimed a few weeks ago, his professor-friend uses his bevy of believers to discover stock tips which have enabled him to beat the market consistently. He's the richest investor you've never heard of!

Remote vision also explains how Joseph found buried treasure during his scrying days; made so much money from selling the copyright to the BoM in Canada in accordance with D&C revelation; and grew rich with his Kirtland Bank and his real estate investments in Nauvoo. Mormonism stands as testament to the powers of psychic viewing.

Praise the lord!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2020 06:28PM by Lot's Wife.

"Some revelation is of God.
Some revelation is of man.
And some revelation is of the Devil."

As usual I make a statement of fact and the 'geniuses' on this board that are 'reading impaired' have a problem!! This is why I get such a kick out of reading some of the comments on this board.

I only stated seeing without your eyes was possible!

If you think I was trying to support JS or any other Mormon con men's lies ---- you would be wrong, as usual.

I actually 'know' staunch LDS psychics who have achieved some notoriety because of their work in the military, etc. When they come on utube talk shows concerning psychics I am the first to comment people like this are 'frauds'. Unbiased, accurate psychics are in the 'truth' business and to have a 'Mormon lifestyle' definitely goes against 'truth'. Guess what ---- none have defended their 'Mormonism' yet by claiming their psychic work validated anything! One that was a 'regular on utube' is not 'regular' anymore ---- maybe I had something to do with that.

spiritist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I only stated seeing without your eyes was
> possible!
>


In a thread where I was specifically refuting the validity of the Three Witnesses and talking about Joseph Smith's career in occult and folk magic dealings. Sure sounded like you were defending him to me.

> I only stated seeing without your eyes was
> possible!

You'd better hope that "seeing without your eyes" is possible because when you recently linked to an academic whom you thought supported your views you demonstrated that your actual eyes and ears do not work very well.


-----------------
> If you think I was trying to support JS or any
> other Mormon con men's lies ---- you would be
> wrong, as usual.

Of course you are supporting "JS and other Mormon con men's lies." You cannot on the one hand say that spiritual vision is possible and on the other say that you know for a fact that their assertions are fraudulent.


--------------
> I actually 'know' staunch LDS psychics who have
> achieved some notoriety because of their work in
> the military, etc. When they come on utube talk
> shows concerning psychics I am the first to
> comment people like this are 'frauds'. Unbiased,
> accurate psychics are in the 'truth' business and
> to have a 'Mormon lifestyle' definitely goes
> against 'truth'.

How do you tell the difference between real spiritual visionaries and fake ones? Because if you cannot produce such a concrete demonstrable guide you are telling us that we must accept your views on faith--which is exactly how Mormonism works.


---------------
> Guess what ---- none have
> defended their 'Mormonism' yet by claiming their
> psychic work validated anything! One that was a
> 'regular on utube' is not 'regular' anymore ----
> maybe I had something to do with that.

Sure. You have asserted that your system works but offered no evidence at all. When you attempted to do so, you produced someone who had studied the phenomenon over decades and said that it didn't work. Then you claimed, with no evidence, that you know a guy who uses visions to get stock tips.

Whether you like it or not, you are supporting Mormon claims because the foundation of those claims is the ability of "special" humans to see facts through spiritual visions, facts that normal humans cannot perceive. Your epistemology is still 100% Mormon.

Very interesting read, as it itemizes the who, what, and when of JS's various reportings of his 1st vision.

Here's the pdf off their website. Consider exploring their site for other articles. Many are free, and they have an extensive bookstore which has material from secular and Christian sources.

http://utlm.org/newsletters/pdfnewsletters/134saltlakecitymessenger.pdf

TheGoodMan can you believe in God and Christ after the mormon church? Absolutely! Mormonism has nothing to do with either one.

But the more you study the early roots of the church, in particular Joseph Smith's early days and all the symbolism in mormonism, you will come to same conclusion - It is clearly doctrines of the devil, not just men.

All the things they blame other churches for - they are doing themselves. We all know that priestcraft properly labeled as generous living stipends which any CEO should receive is sophistry to keep the Saints pacified. $100B for a Jesus Rainy Day Fund - means they never had communication to know of his ways or when he will return. And their hate of the Catholic Church hides their sincerest form of admiration - imitation. If the Catholic Church had its headquarters in Utah it would look and act like the Mormon Church.

Just compare notes - they set forth what secret combinations are before practicing them in temples. They have their own sexual abuse which they protect the abusers from prosecution. They make up their own titles. There was no first presidency, area authority, general authority or president of the church in the Bible. The church demands money from the poor to furnish their finely appointed mormon cathedrals. Even their selection of a prophet mirrors catholicism except for colored smoke being let out from temple.

This is why church history is revised all the time. If they had presented anything in its real light, people would chase them out of town (in fact many people did once they learned of their exploits.) All I am saying is just look at what they do not what they say.

You hit the nail on the head! Today, my studies involved some modern prophet/churchco inconsistencies and shady behavior. I discovered Grant Palmer and his article about meeting a GA and what the guy told him about what the Apostles know. It is so corrupt, it's not even funny. Here, I thought that the church was suspect because the origins revolved around the selfish exploits of J.S. Come to find out that being poison from the start, they never detoxed; the corruption just grew roots through the entire thing all the way up to how the churchco operates today and those who lead it.

Mormonmartinluther wrote in part:

"Even their selection of a prophet mirrors catholicism except for colored smoke being let out from temple."

uh...not true, and I'm a former Catholic. In the Mormon religion, who the next prophet will be is not a mystery--it follows an order of seniority. However, this is not true of the Roman Catholic church. Nobody knows who the next pope will be when one dies or retires--there is no set hierarchy there.

As you have said you were in Rexburg which is brainwashing ground zero for the church, not even BYU can do what they can in that isolated Idaho town. I say this because you know about the idol worship there of past presidents in particular Bednar and for some oldies maybe Eyring.

Mormonism is straight up idol worship from the symbols of the Angel Moroni molten out of gold to GAs being treated like rockstars everything clamors for more attention than Christ in that church. Let us not forget the constant Praising of a man who had inappropriate conversations with teenage brides at best but yet somehow came off being second in holiness to Christ. It is idol worship from its beginning to its current iteration.

But as some fun homework, grab a soda, chips and just look up the jupiter talisman worn around Joseph Smith's neck. Research what they are used for outside of church PR. Would a christian really be caught dead with that thing? Yet, Joseph would never let it go even until death and I believe was found on him at Carthage. Let that rattle around.

Mormon Jeopardy: what is idol worship for $100B Alex? Ding Ding Ding!

MormonMartinLuther Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Would a christian really
> be caught dead with that [Jupiter talisman] thing?
>
> No, but JS was!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2020 10:51PM by caffiend.

the tiniest inspection shows that MORmON founder PERVERT Joseph Smith put the responsibility of his questionable and outlandish acts on commands from MORmON Jesus.

the tiniest inspection shows that MORmON Jesus turns outs to be a real dumbass screw up with a lot of interest in fulfilling the sordid twisted desires of PERVERTS who worship and serve Him.....as His supposed greatest prophet ever ....... much more than promoting the ideals that were expressed as the NT Jesus taught and acted.