(I posted a similar thread at postmormon.org last week. I'm looking for all the support I can get.)

I'm one of many ex-mormons who started to have serious doubts about the church while attending BYU. I wasn't _really_ free to honestly evaluate and act on my doubts, however, because I knew that if I came to the conclusion that the church wasn't true and decided to leave the church, I would have been immediately dismissed from BYU. It's hard enough to deal with the emotional and social pressue associated with leaving the church. The additional threat of destroying your academic and professional life is one the church ought not to have.

Now that I am out of BYU and out of the church, I'm interested in organizing an advocacy effort aimed at changing BYU policy on this topic. Our goal is merely that BYU students who choose to disaffiliate themselves from the church be treated exactly like a non-member. BYU would still be able to force them to live the honor code, maintain an ecclesiastical endorsement, or even pay non-member tuition, but they would be unable to expell them from the university.

Unfortunately, being rasied as a compliant TBM I have precisely zero experience in advocacy. Does anyone have any experience or advice on this matter? (Will you give it to me?) And perhaps most important, is anyone interested in getting involved?

College years are frequently the time in which we challenge our worldview and become independent thinkers. Universities are supposed to be places of intellectual freedom. By requiring ideological conformity under threat of dismissal, BYU flagrantly tramples these principles. Will anyone help me fight?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2010 01:08PM by mateo.

I don't think so. I don't think that kind of effort has any power to change anything with the LDS Church or BYU.

It's a positive effort, and would be helpful, but I doubt it can be done.

The church is driven by stats. They know exactly how many Children of record they will never see again if they don't get baptized at 8. They know exactly how many 16 year old priests will eventually serve a mission. They know exactly how many returned missionaries will marry in the temple and how many future tithe paying children they will beget.

Similarly, they keep stats on how many BYU graduates marry other members and how much tithing they can expect going forward. There is no way they are going to allow any kind of dissension on God's own campus. They don't care one whit about the individual, that isn't how the kingdom of God is run.

The kingdom comes first - ALWAYS!

Stunted



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2010 01:17PM by Stunted.

I agree with the above post, you'll have better luck and more fun, masterbating.

I admit that it's an uphill battle. But that's true of any advocacy campaign.

The challenge is to convince the church that it's in their best interests to alter its policy. There are at least two ways to pull this off:

First, we can incite public pressure. If enough people get upset about this, the church just might cave. For example: there are plenty of people both on and off BYU campus who are willing to challenge the church on Prop. 8, and I'm fully convinced that as a result BYU's policy on homosexual students will continue to shift. It's entirely conceivable that the same is possible with apostates.

Second, we can further arguments that BYU's policy already does more harm than good for the church. You could argue that when a disaffected TBM is forced to fly under the radar at BYU, he's more likely to resent the church and actively fight against it when he finally leaves BYU and resigns his membership. (Certainly that's true in my case!) By allowing skeptics at least a little bit of intellectual freedom, they can reduce the number of hostile ex-mormons coming out of BYU. If they don't find this particular argument compelling, perhaps we can construct other arguments that they will accept.

I know that many of us here have seen so much intransigence out of the church that it's hard to believe it will change on anything like this. But church policy DOES change -- even if out of cowardice and opportunism -- and the only way it can happen is if enough people stand up and fight for it.

I agree that this is the way to go. Ultimately, I think that they view the benefits of this policy as being something of a quarantine on infected members. If a student stops believing, they should be removed so that other students will not be infected.

Ultimately, I wouldn't even be bothered if they allowed people to come out of the Apostacy Closet but required that they not protest the church or try to get other members to leave as well. Students could still be open about their loss of belief without being overbearing on other students. I would also have no problem with BYU charging these students non-member tuition after they decide to leave.

In the end, I think that the trick is to convince BYU that changing their policy is in their best interest. If they feel that their relations with disaffected members (and the Gentile world at large) will be improved by this, and that this would outweigh the potential harm of allowing apostates in their midsts, then and only then will they go for this.

If, on the other hand, they feel that the PR improvement is negligible and that they will lose 2 members for every apostate allowed to remain at BYU, then the idea will never fly.

I never went to BYU and am not entirely sure how it's funded, but most colleges and universities - especially private ones - get a lot of their money from alumni donors. If you could persuade alumni donors, especially those give a lot of money to BYU, to pressure the university to change their policy, that might get their attention.

You might benefit from connecting with someone who has fund raising experience and is familiar with BYU. Fund raisers do lots of research into who gives money to whom. Someone with that background might help you find BYU donors and target them with a campaign to build support for your cause.

Former BYU students who can offer first-hand stories would be helpful too.

Organizations, governments, and really any large powerful group don't change their policies because they're wrong. They change because it will cost them not to change. If they see that they're going to lose money by maintaining the status quo, you'll see some results.

It would be wonderful to get BYU donors involved, as it would put financial pressure on the institution. The trick is to find donors who are willing to oppose BYU's policy -- which I imagine is a pretty small group.

Would -say- the ACLU be able to help?

I don't know about the ACLU. As far as I can tell, the BYU's policy is perfectly legal, so a lawsuit wouldn't help anything. I suppose they may be able to offer practical advice and perhaps support, however. I'll at least take a look. Thanks!

The ACLU might argue discrimination, so it's worth a shot!

is that they don't want strong LDS kids associating closely with respectable and intelligent people who leave the church and who do just fine without it.

I have a niece who left largely because she lived with non-members and realized that they were wonderful people and every bit as happy as her. That challenged her beliefs enough that it eventually led her out.

On the other hand, the current policy at BYU can bite them in the butt, too. I had a very good friend that was kicked out of BYU just because she wouldn't go to church. She's a fantastic individual, and one of the most thoughtful and ethical thinkers I know. But she wouldn't go through the motions for them. She offered to pay non-member tuition and they refused to let her. So she had to transfer to another school and basically start her masters' program over.

That pissed me off to no end. (still kinda does). They added the ecclesiastical endorsement AFTER she began her program, and she had been inactive for years (yes, at BYU). But they changed the rules midstream. It was wrong, and even as an ultra TBM, it left a very bad taste in my mouth about BYU, and cast doubt about it being led by inspired leaders. Who's to say if that may have opened the door a crack for me to question the church itself? It was one of the first negative reactions I had to something sponsored by the church. (and honestly, the self-righteous posturing at BYU was pretty off-putting, too).

I recently graduated from BYU Law School, and throughout the three years I had to keep my "apostasy" quiet for the very policy you would like to change.

I actually mentioned the policy to my closest friends, and almost none of them knew that such a policy even existed. I am willing to bet that 90%+ of the students at BYU have no clue that policy exists. However, nearly all of my friends thought it was a terrible policy and I'm betting that many of them would be on board with making a change.

I am willing to help you advocate for a change. Let me know how I might be able to help.

There are lots of things about LDS, Inc. and it's affilates that would be good to change.

The fact remains the organization's core raison d'etre is being the one true church of God. Since any brief or intensive study of early Mormon history leads you to the conclusion that Joseph Smith was less than advertised you'd think people would be up in arms about that, but they aren't. And they aren't likely to get up in arms about this policy in sufficient numbers.

I'm workinonit has it right. Charles Larson's talk at the Exmormon Foundation a year or two ago gives some background on how this rule came about. He thinks it was in large measure because he was such a trouble maker as a student. They don't want other people like that in, so former Mormons need not apply.

In all of my years of advocacy and political activism, I'd have to say that the most powerful tool I've ever used is public shame. I think there is good cause to use this tool in your case. It takes a lot of nerve to publicly shame the LDS Church, but it hits them right in the soft underbelly. If everything works right, it's like giving the LDS Church a swift and well-connected kick in the groin.

Definitely agree that shame is the way to go. We have learned by sad experience that the only way to ever make the Mormon church (or BYU) is to either hurt them financially or hurt their PR. Nothing else has ever been effective. They most certainly will never change simply to do the right thing.

I am curious about what kinds of speech restrictions are placed on non-members attending BYU. Obviously, the non-member is allowed to not believe, but are they allowed to voice their objections concerning the Mormon church?

I imagine the big concern on the part of BYU is that apostates will infect other white and delightsome members and cause them to leave the fold as well. I would think, though, that if BYU has already prohibited anti-church speak on campus that a disaffected member could remain on campus and keep the honor code while not harming the testimony of any other students. Certainly, they should be allowed to state that they no longer believe when asked and give their reasons without being overbearing or antagonistic.

In a sense, they could be treated just like any other non-member on campus who doesn't believe in Joseph Smith, keeps the honor code, and gets to graduate.