Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: Toronto Boy ( )
Date: June 13, 2015 03:15PM

I first went through the temple in 1967. I was 22 years olds and was taught this is an eternal, never changing endowment.

Well since that time, there have been several BIG changes. Attending one of the newer Canadian temples yesterday, they have made another change to this eternal unchanging endownment. Before the session they told everyone if they do not want to stand to get the tokens, that is okay. Sitting is permitted now. Of course several people sat and made it a bit of pain to give out the tokens.

Personally I don't care if you sit, stand, kneel or lay down to get the tokens BUT do not say this an eternal process this endownment thing.That it exixted before the world was created like I was taught before going to the temple in 1967.

My brother told me there was a change a month ago. His friend in Texas told him but would not tell him what it was.

I think there was a second change too. This has to do with consecrating your time, talents etc. and everything that is in the Book of D&C. Then they told up the D&C. Maybe it has always been there but I noticed it yesterday. So you covenenet to follow the law of consecration as spelled out in the D&C. Why are we not following the rest of the stuff in the D&C?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: joinedtheMUMMYJUMS ( )
Date: June 13, 2015 03:25PM

Because all they care about is your time, talents, cash, intellectual property, and everything else you have. It's all for the $$$, TB. Nothing else counts.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: June 13, 2015 03:36PM

I'm sure that they checked with ghawd before making the changes...

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: dydimus ( )
Date: June 13, 2015 03:48PM

I'm with you on this.

My beliefs and what I was taught was that "Mormonism" has very few set Prayers or Rites that have to be exact; but those that we do have, cannot be changed. Not one jot or tittle. Not the Sacrament, The Baptism has to be done exactly with the Baptizer immersing fully the convert and raising them up (The water level has to be below ground level, which is why in the temple and churches the fonts are so low [Why so many "bathtub" baptisms had to be redone, because the baptizer has to be in the "Watery Grave" along with the convert, to pull them out of the water]. That the giving of the Holy Ghost had to have specific wording. Why the anointing of oil had to have sacred, specific wording, why full correct names have to be said at blessings of children, baptisms, ordination, etc...

Anyway. The Adamic Language, The wording and full endowment with 5 points and Penalties;...All of these things shouldn't be changed. Yet, the endowment was changed, the washing/anointing was changed, The Prayer Circle was changed, etc... I knew it was wrong.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: angela ( )
Date: June 13, 2015 11:59PM

The prayer circle changed? What changed?

I've been out since early 90's

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: dydimus ( )
Date: June 14, 2015 07:14AM

They no longer use the Adamic language "Pay-Le-El"

It's now just straight English (or whatever local language) "Oh God Hear the Words of my mouth".

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: randyj ( )
Date: June 14, 2015 09:12PM

"My beliefs and what I was taught was that "Mormonism" has very few set Prayers or Rites that have to be exact; but those that we do have, cannot be changed. Not one jot or tittle."

I grew up learning the same thing. When I spoke at the ExMo conference in 2002, I related this experience:

Then, in 1990 came another blow to my testimony, when church leaders made sweeping changes in the temple endowment. For me, the changes weren't as big an issue as the fact that when I went through the Salt Lake temple in 1974, our group of missionaries was taken to the upstairs assembly room where we had a question-and-answer session with one of the general authorities, whose name was O. Leslie Stone, if you remember that name. One of the missionaries asked him if the endowment ceremony had ever been changed, and Stone replied emphatically that it had not, and that church leaders kept the original scripts of the ceremony to ensure that it was repeated correctly, much like the sacrament prayer and baptismal prayer are maintained and required to be repeated verbatim.

So, when I learned of the 1990 changes, my mind immediately went back to Stone's emphatic remarks to us naive missionaries 16 years earlier about the accuracy and unchangeability of the ceremony. Of course, I've since learned that the ceremony has undergone numerous significant alterations since its 1842 inception, and that those changes, including the 1990 ones, were made because of political or social correctness issues, rather than out of doctrinal need. That was my first personal experience with a general authority being less than totally honest about the facts of church history. The promise in the D&C that church leaders would never lead us astray was beginning to unravel, in my mind.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: June 13, 2015 03:56PM

Correct me where I'm wrong:

Upon the occasion of the post-JS assassination diaspora, there were no written accounts of the temple ceremonies. For a number of years, this occasion no real grief.

But then they got the St. George temple ready to go and all the biggie-wiggies gather together to collectively do what they could regarding remembering what JS had taught them.

If this story is true, it sparks amusement... Why didn't BY just ask ghawd for the script?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: randyj ( )
Date: June 13, 2015 11:20PM

Without bothering to look it up, I doubt that that was the case, because they kept having endowment sessions in the Nauvoo Temple up until they left, and then they built the Endowment House in SLC to do sessions in long before the temples were built.

As dedicated as they were in keeping records, it's likely that they had a script for the endowment ceremony too.

Although, it's true that they occasionally made changes in the ceremony, one of the most notable being the adding of the "oath of vengeance" after the Smiths' murders.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: June 14, 2015 12:23AM

From "Fifteen Years Among The Mormons."

https://ia802305.us.archive.org/19/items/fifteenyearsamo01greegoog/fifteenyearsamo01greegoog.pdf


CHAPTER IV.



ENDOWMENTS.



By early winter, the "upper rooms" of the Temple, set
apart for the mysteries of the Endowments were finished,
and the persons in the different quorums accounted worthy,
were sent for, to receive the "fullness of that blessing."

None but those of approved integrity, and of undoubted
orthodoxy, who have paid their "tithing," can travel this
"Mormon road to Heaven," as it is called. This "tithing,"
in its fullest sense, implies a tenth of all one's property
and income, and one-tenth of the time to be spent in labor
on the public works, or money to hire a substitute.

There are many things about these initiations which I do
not feel at liberty to disclose, as I have received them as
religious mysteries, at a time I believed they were true —
when I knew no other religion. Indeed, my whole know-
ledge of religion, until within a few months, has been associ-
ated with these ceremonies, as opening the only road to
heaven. They have taught me to believe my chief duties
as a woman, in this life, consisted in having a great many
children ; and my prospect for happiness and "exaltation"
in the next world, to be greatly enhanced, by being one of
many fruitful wives of one man ; and that even my salvation
depended upon the pleasure of the Prophet, or on that of a
spiritual husband, and I had never heard a true account of
that beautiful story of a free salvation through Christ, of
which I am now anxious to know more.

Those things in the following ceremonies, which I have
neglected to disclose, are such as, while they would only
gratify the morbid curiosity of some readers, and offend the
good taste of others, are forever sealed within my own breast
by a solemn obligation of secrecy, and must so remain until
I can see how their disclosure can contribute to the public
good: a reason for silence on those points, which all con-
scientious people will, I think, duly appreciate; and yet I
am free to acknowledge, that I have had some difficulty in
settling with my conscience the exact point at which my dis-
closures should end; and the difficulty has not been lessened
by the instruction and advice kindly given me by several dis-
tinguished ministers of the Gospel, that I ought to feel
myself at liberty to make an unreserved disclosure of the
whole matter. I have, however, thought it safest to give my
conscience the benefit of the doubt, where there has been
any question as to what I ought to do; and hence the follow-
ing is all I have to disclose upon this part of Mormonism at
present:

My husband, who was a member of the fourth "Quorum
of Seventies," and myself, were called to the Temple to re-
ceive our "Endowments."

We ascended the first stair, at the head of which Brigham
Young met us. He took me by both hands, and led me to a
door at the left, and whispering in my ear a pass-word, left
me to go in, and afterwards did the same with my husband,
who was directed to enter a door at the right.
The room I had entered was nearly filled with women: no
men were in this room; and no women were in the room at
the right, where Wallace had entered. Here we were un-
dressed and washed in a large tub of warm water, by a woman
who is "ordained" to that office, and then anointed with
"consecrated oil," by another woman, also "ordained" for
that particular duty.

Two high priests were in an adjoining room, consecrating
this oil, and handing the same into both rooms as it was
needed, which was poured from a horn over our heads, and a
lengthy prayer was then said over us. Every part of the
body being in turn the special subject of this prayer, that we
might become as little children, even as Adam and Eve were
when placed in the Garden of Eden, and many other matters
of a similar bearing, which I cannot now recollect, although
I witnessed the ceremony many times afterwards.

We were then dressed with a white night-gown and skirt,
and shoes of bleached drilling, and with our hair loose and
dripping with consecrated oil, each received a new name, and
were instructed that we were never to pronounce this name
on earth but once: and that, when we came to enter within
the "Veil" hereafter described.

The same process is gone through with in the men's wash-
ing-room, except that they wore nothing but shirt and draw-
ers, and when all was ready in both rooms, each party was
piloted by one of their own sex into a common room, fitted
up to represent, and called the Garden of Eden. On this
occasion there were about forty persons of both sexes. The
room into which we were taken was very large, the walls
were hung with white muslin, and was fitted up with boxes,
containing a great variety of trees, designed to represent the
Garden of Eden. All the trees were in life, and presented a
very fine appearance, and we were marched round the room
among them in slow and solemn procession.

It is required that each candidate be perfectly clean in
dress and person, and a filthy thing is here regarded an
abomination.

A circumstance happened at this initiation which will
illustrate how readily propriety is sacrificed to their ideas of
orthodoxy. It appears that a large Irishman, who, though a
good Mormon, had not lost his native propensity to "bulls,"
had come into the wash-room for his "Endowments," either
thoughtlessly or ignorantly, with shirt and drawers not over
dean. He had, however, put on a clean "dickey," but this
would not pass after his anointing, and being the last one
washed, and the procession ready to move into the Garden
of Eden, he threw on his clean dickey, and marched in and
received, to use his own words, "Me Endowments, with nary
an onclane rag abute me," having on, in fact, nothing but his
dickey.

But to continue. The first thing we saw in the centre of
the "Garden" was the "devil," dressed in black muslin, in
conversation with " Eve," the latter being tempted to partake
of the forbidden "fruit," to which she finally yielded. Eve
then went to Adam, with an offer of the "fruit," who, after
much resistance, "be likewise fell;" whereupon the "Lord"
came into the "Garden," with a glittering white robe, be-
spangled with every kind of brilliants that could send back a
flash of light, from whose face Adam, and Eve, and the
"Tempter" fled away, hiding among the trees; but finally
the first two confessed their "crime," and the "Lord" pro-
nounced a curse upon them and upon their race, copied from
Genesis, and the devil crawled out of sight upon his face.
The Lord then put aprons upon Adam and Eve, and upon us
all, made of white linen, illustrated by means of green silk,
to represent fig-leaves. We were then led out again, each
to our respective rooms, and thus ended the "first glory."

I deem it proper, and a duty I owe my sex, to hand dawn
to infamy the names of the women I have seen not only then,
but since, represent "Eve" in the "Garden of Eden," the
more so, because the persona whose names I am about to
mention appear to have performed it willingly and with "pleasure."

Eliza Snow, who was one of the wives of the Prophet
Joseph, and now a wife of Brigham Young "for time," as
it is termed, which means she will be Joseph's wife again in
heaven, performed this part more than any other woman.
Now at fifty years of age, she is even yet very beautiful, and
she may be said to perform infamously well. I have also
seen Mrs. Buel, mentioned heretofore, do the same. She is
the woman whose husband lived at Lima, Ill., when Joseph
seduced her from him. I have also seen Mrs. Knowlton in
the same capacity. She is the mother of my brother How-
ard's wife, Martha.

Martha is a good and pure woman, and will not submit to
the double wife practice although she is forced to acknow-
ledge, in common with all Mormon women, that it is right
in principle each week when she is questioned, as they all
are, by the "teachers." When my brother Howard one time
brought home another wife, Martha fought her out of the
house, and he was forced to console himself with one. But
when I left Salt Lake last year, he was courting two sisters
whom he intended to take home, thinking they would to-
gether be able to hold the balance of power in Martha's
household. I presume she will in the end submit, as that
is sure to be the fate of most Mormon women.

"Satan" is generally represented by Judge Phelps, for
whom I have no words sufficiently hateful. Levi Hancock
also often performed the same. And "Adam" by Orson
Hyde and Parley P. Pratt I have no doubt but these cha-
racters have been represented by others, but these are the
persons who generally do it. The whole room was hung
with white cloth, and behind one side of the "Garden of
Eden" there was no wall but the curtain, with an arrange-
ment of "peep-holes," where Mormons who have before taken
their Endowments may witness it again. Brigham Young
was in the practice of sending for various ones among the
women to that room, where he examined them as to their
pass-words and grips, and forced them to witness again the
"temptation." I was often sent for afterwards at Salt Lake
on such occasions.

The character of the "Lord" was always represented by
"Brother Brigham," if he could possibly be there--if not,
deputized some one; but Brigham never played the "Devil"
or "Adam" on these occasions.

I think I need not inform my readers how heartily the
women mentioned as "Eves" at these infernal rites were in
secret despised and hated bj the great mass of the Mormon
women: especially Eliza Snow. Though forced to treat them
well in society there, I take pleasure in letting them know
the opinion that obtained among their own sex, and which
would have found an expression of universal disgust from
those of their associates, if it were not crushed into silence by the overshadowing power of the Prophet.

We were now undressed again, and each put on the "gar-
ment," which is so arranged as to form a whole suit at once;
and the "robe," which is a strip of white muslin, say three-
fourths of a yard wide, and long enough to reach to the feet,
gathered in the middle, and tied by a bow, to the left shoul-
der, and brought across the body, and the edges fastened to-
gether on the right side, with a belt around the waist of the
same. Over this was put the apron we had received in the
"first glory;" and the women wore what is called a veil,
made of a large piece of book muslin, reaching nearly to the
floor, and gathered up at one corner to fit the head. The
men wore a kind of turban, made of the same material, other-
wise men and women were dressed alike. Thus disguised,
it was quite impossible for us to recognize each other.

We were next led into what is called the Terrestrial Glory ;
where Brigham Young received us, and after a long effort to
explain the disgusting scene in the "Garden," as necessary to
our future exaltation, he gave each a pass-woxd and grip
necessary, he said, to admit us into the "Celestial Glory;"
where our (i.e.Mormon) "god" dwells. Some say this is
Adam; and some that Joe Smith is to be our "god," and
afterwards, Brigham Young intimated, that he (Brigham),
was the medium of our salvation, and that Joseph was his
"god." They do not all agree upon this point; but they do
agree upon another thing, and that is: that there are many
gods, and they do not acknowledge the one Triune God of
the Bible, but that every man will sometime be a "god;"
and that women are to be the ornaments of his kingdom, and
dependent upon him for resurrection and salvation; and that
our salvation is dependent upon the recollection of these pass-
words; that when we get to Heaven, these pass-words will
open the door to us if we can recollect them; but even then,
Brigham's permission is necessary before the women can en-
ter. The absolute truth of which theory I have never doubted
until within a few months.

From this we pass, after being armed with the pass-words
and grips, to another room, where is an altar, before which,
if any wish, they are "sealed" — that is married. The name of
this I do not recollect, but it is the third "Glory." We
arrived finally, where a veil separated us from the "Celestial
Glory." A man behind the veil examined us, as to the pass-
words and grips Brigham had given us, and to whom we gave
our "new name," received at the first anointing. Holes
through the veil enabled him to see us when we could not see
him, and also, to cut with a small pair of scissors, certain
marks, beside others, the Masonic square and compass, upon
the right and left breast of our " garments," and upon the
right knee, a gash, deep enough to make a scar, by which «re
were to be recognized as Mormons. This gash upon the right
biee is now often omitted, because many of the women ob-
ject to it. We were then admitted into the "Celestial Glory,"
where, seated upon a throne, in great state, was a person
representing "our god." This was a gorgeously furnished
room, illustrating by earthly signs a heavenly glory. This
ends the first "anointing."

The time occupied in this initiation is about ten hours.
Two days in the week are set apart for this purpose, and
sometimes group after group succeeds each other, and the ini-
tiation is continued all day, and not unfrequently long after
midnight.

Arrived at this point, the candidate is prepared to pro-
ceed to the "second anointing." This I have never received,
and for various reasons, not the least of which was, that very
few have received this as yet, and will not until the new
temple at Salt Lake city is finished. I had also heard it
hinted, that the "second anointing" was administered
without clothing of any kind; and moreover, as it will be
seen hereafter, I had reason to doubt somewhat, though not
entirely to discard Mormonism.

It was a noticeable feature, that the outside show of some
of the regalia and furniture connected with these *' Endow-
ments," were made to conform to those of Masonry; and
Mormons are anxious to have the "Gentiles" associate all
they know of these beastly "Endowments," with Masonry, or
as being a modified form of it, made eligible to women, as a
blind to cover the real objects of this "Institution;" and I

have noticed by the public prints, since my arrival in the
States, that this was the opinion entertained among those
"Gentiles" supposed to be best informed upon this subject.
But this is but a mere blind; and the real object of these
mystic forms is no way connected with, or borrowed from
Masonry. Now, in conclusion of my disclosures upon this
part of my subject, associated as it is with hateful memories
of that peculiar kind, most distasteful to the recollection of a
pure woman, I deem it my duty, in compensation for what
I have felt compelled to omit of the foregoing, especially of
that never to be forgotten scene in the "Garden of Eden,"
to state, that the "moral" and object of the whole is, socially,
to unsex the sexes; * * * * * * * * * * and when I call the attention of
the reader to the fact, that while I have described the dress
of all the parties to this inhuman display, and ocular demon-
stration, I have not mentioned the dress of "Adam and Eve"
nor the nature of the "Fruit" by which each was in turn
tempted; I think he will admit, that while I hare said enough,
I have also left more unsaid than the imagination, held with
the loosest possible rein, would be likely to picture; and I
have only to add, that the reality is too monstrous for human
belief.*

==============================================================


* It would seem to be a misfortune, that a false estimate of pro
priety should be allowed to interpose a barrier against the exposure

of these Mormon debaucheries. But as Mrs. S , from consci

tious scruples, and a doubt as to the good to be accomplished by
more full disclosure, preferred ftlence, we leave this subject as it is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2015 08:15AM by anybody.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: dimmesdale ( )
Date: June 14, 2015 03:26PM

that her father (probably in the very early 1900s) was bathed in tubs like this author mentioned. This was in the SL temple, I believe. The endowment included a bath in a large tub.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Villager ( )
Date: June 14, 2015 10:10PM

I don't recall reading or hearing about "peepholes" where those who had already received their endowments could secretly re-watch.
Very creepy.
Brigham most likely had peepholes in every room and brought his most trusted brethren with him to the "peepshow".

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: sportsguy ( )
Date: June 15, 2015 04:19PM

I almost feel physically sick after reading this...

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: June 14, 2015 12:26AM

I first went through in late 1978. Still doing the full set of death gestures. My TBM mother and step-dad were with me for my first temple session.

Fast forward to 4 years ago. They ditched the death gestures in 1990 (so I've heard, I stopped going forever in 1980), but my TBM mother had done them literally thousands of times by then. When she was visiting at my place 4 years ago, some church subjects came up, so I gently breached the changes to the temple rituals made in 1990 with her, asking her how she felt about them removing the death gestures.
"What are you talking about?" she asked.
"You know, mom, the slitting throat and slicing guts open gestures we made associated with the penalties -- that I did with YOU when I went through."
"Oh, I think your memory is playing tricks with you," she said," there were never any such things in the temple!"

I sat there with my mouth open. I know we did them. I know she did them right along with me. She's not senile or forgetful. Yet somehow she's managed to convince herself that the current endowment is how it's always been done.

I don't know how people can lie to themselves like that.
Stupid cult.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: June 14, 2015 12:30AM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: verilyverily ( )
Date: June 14, 2015 02:17AM

BRAINWASHING IS REALLY EVIL

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: dydimus ( )
Date: June 14, 2015 07:31AM

Exact same thing happened with me. My sister and her convert husband went well after I did. Somehow I told her about the penalties and other changes.

She asked other family & friends who also went through prior to 1990. They swore up and down there had been no changes. Luckily the internet came up and one of the first things I showed her was the documentation and sites that talked about the ceremonies and changes. It made it easier later on because I helped her to see how the members lie/cover up history and stuff... It showed them to be lying for the Lord, while I was presenting truth.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: randyj ( )
Date: June 14, 2015 09:07PM

I did my endowment in 1974 when I went on my mission. My father was a non-Mormon, so my mother didn't do her endowment until 1990, after he died, which was shortly after they changed the ceremony. When I was studying my way out of the church around 1997 or so, when she was about 80, I told her a little about the death oaths which had been omitted. I pantomimed drawing my thumb across my throat and stomach to explain to her how it went.

She angrily replied, "Son, that's a pack of lies. There would never be anything like that in the Lord's church. All the good church members we've known all these years, they would never be involved in anything like that!"

I figured she'd react somewhat like that, and I also realized that there was nothing I could say to make her believe that I, her own baby son, wasn't lying to her.

Ironically, a couple of the long-time "good church members" in our ward whom we'd known for decades were also Masons. So they'd been through the death oaths X 2. They knew all about them. But good Mormons aren't supposed to talk about the temple ceremony, so my mother died in her ignorance.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: weeder ( )
Date: June 15, 2015 04:38PM

Unbelievable ... it isn't like it was ancient history or anything like that either.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: verilyverily ( )
Date: June 14, 2015 02:15AM

"Never Changing" in the CULT context means not changing today most likely.... could be tomorrow

Any time anyone says "NEVER CHANGING" just reveals they are nuts because all things continually change. Impermanence is just a fact.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: June 14, 2015 10:44AM

Interesting that she notes how the "actresses" in the endowment were looked upon just as badly as any other theatrical actress in the 1800's.

Not by the men however, I'm sure.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: June 14, 2015 10:39PM

This isn't the source I reviewed when I thought it was being bruited about that BY gathered some people together in St. George to get their best recollections as to how the endowment ceremony should go...

http://www.ldsendowment.org/timeline.html

It's the 1877 item...

In any event, this is a nice, compact listing of the changes...

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: rocketscientist ( )
Date: June 15, 2015 12:36PM

Don't forget the interview of Elder Dodo by the BBC where he admits "we used to" when confronted by the reporter after he denied that there were penalties.

So, one of the inner circle has admitted it, on video! For those of you who have relatives that insist that nothing has changed, refer them to the video. Just search "Jeffery Holland BBC interview" and you will easily find it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: June 15, 2015 12:48PM

Who was that said something like (paraphrasing here) "Oh, no, the ceremony may change, but the actual endowments never, ever change."

Easy out.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: MarkJ ( )
Date: June 15, 2015 02:45PM

For what it's worth, if somebody ever confronts me about keeping the covenants that I made in the temple, I will just say that the church canceled them when they changed the terms of the contract by changing the endowment ceremony.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: michaelc1945 ( )
Date: June 15, 2015 07:08PM

This should not be a surprise to anyone. The church is ever evolving and has been from its very inception. Church leadership has only to pull the revelation card to make changes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Screen Name: 
Your Email (optional): 
Subject: 
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
 **    **  ********  ********   *******   **     ** 
 ***   **     **     **    **  **     **  **     ** 
 ****  **     **         **    **         **     ** 
 ** ** **     **        **     ********   **     ** 
 **  ****     **       **      **     **  **     ** 
 **   ***     **       **      **     **  **     ** 
 **    **     **       **       *******    *******