when we leave our traditional, generational, familial, religious tribe aka The LDS Church/Mormonism? And it will be different for BIC or converts.

If we are centered in our own happiness and love of our fellow human beings how will that manifest when we are confronted with rude, negative, critical, out of order behavior that is not centered in love and compassion? Will we be able to show tolerance, love, and patience just as we would like shown to us? Will we be able to understand how they are feeling -- maybe rejected, hurt, offended, etc?

Are we going to resort to name calling and refer to our friends and loved ones as brainwashed, stupid, gullible, cultist (and worse), or are we going to be respectful, kind, polite and tolerant and show the same respect for them we want for ourselves?

Are we going to prove to them that we are nasty, horrible people just as they expected, or are we going to be filled with love and happiness and show it?

Can we rejoice in the joy of others? Or are we filled with so much hatred and anger that shows them what they have been told when people leave the LDS church is true.

Do we manifest that joy, inner peace, happiness that we claim we have since leaving the LDS Church? Or do we respond in kind, upping the ante with more and more negativity, anger, rage, and hatred? I believe that "thoughts are things" and even though we may be holding our tongue, we are putting out vibes as strong and stinky as an ugly perfume.

It's my observation and conclusion that we have an important choice to make in dealing with anyone who is not accepting, or rejects us, attacks us, makes accusations, etc. for any reason.
Do we know how to empower ourselves and make a choice to not engage?

In my case, I know I handled it differently at different times, depending on the person. Now, over 10 years later, I rarely say anything about how I used to be LDS. It just never comes up. Nobody really cares! :-)

Interesting...I need to think.

A quote I find very true:
He who angers you conquers you. ~Elizabeth Kenny

,,, you will find the answer.

You choose to placate the mormons you "live with and love" because they provide you an easy and comfortable lifestyle.

That's not "taking back your power." That's settling for second best simply because its easier to do so.

You wrote:

"Do we know how to empower ourselves and make a choice to not engage?"

How typical of the spineless coward. The more relevant question is, "Do we know how to empower ourselves by kicking ass and not taking names?"

Ignoring a problem will not make it go away.

Timothy

doing my best to empower myself to use the amazing power of love, including: tolerance, positive attitude, respect, understanding, compassion, gratitude, humor, etc. and treat others the way I want to be treated, regardless of their religious beliefs or any other differences.
I choose to live in harmony with others as much as possible.
And for that, I reap wonderful relationships for which I am always grateful.

The wise who control their body, who control their tongue, who control their mind, are indeed well controlled.
Buddha

Dress it up in sweet and wise chalk talk, it's still basically collaboration. Sorry, but being an apologist for a group responsible for so much pain and sorrow can't be assuaged by appealing to some eternal saintly perspective. We live here on earth. We bleed, are ephemeral, and die. Explaining away intentional hurt as something to be ignored, endured, or otherwise appreciated is just not for me.

My comments do not fall in line with supporting the faith based beliefs, teachings and claims of the LDS Church. That is what apologists do.I don't do that. Never have.


My comments are mostly about human relationships and how to deal with people we don't agree with and/or treat us poorly.

I prefer to live my life with a positive, grateful attitude filled with fun and laughter and not allow others to destroy my peace of mind because we don't agree on a particular topic. I want friends, not enemies.

I do support the rights of human beings to their choice of personal beliefs of any kind whatsoever. Their beliefs do not influence what kind of relationship I have with them.

I promote personal choice and behavior and attitudes that are positive, that uplift, promote mental, emotional health and don't sabotage our own happiness.

Great topic!

I have to make a note to remind myself- that I do not want someone else to tell me when to yell.
I have to make anote to remind myself- that I do not want someone else to plan or tell me when I need to cry.
I have to make a note to remind myself- that I do not want to have someone else tell me when to be socially awkward.
I have to make a note to remind myself- that I do not want to
have someone else tell me WHEN to feel embarrassed about how I look in my clothes.

I need to make a note to remind myself- that I do not want someone else to tell me exactly when and exactly why they think that I need to be feeling anxiety.
I need to make a note to remind myself- that I do not want someone else to be telling me their version of my adversity which includes telling me to be ashamed of existing justifying further adversity.


I really need to make a note to remind myself- that I do not want someone else to determine when I am going to be engaged in being mad, enraged, furious, filled with rage.

I reeeally need to make a note to remind myself- that I do not want it to be someonse else, whom I allow or assist or participate with- facilitating or allowing- THEM- someone else- to set the emotional tone of my life.

Not for one moment. not again. no more. finuto finished. done.

Let it be said of me I can walk confidantly. I select my boundary. I select my company. I can take a chance & make and create after heart ache, laugh and dance, find joy & participate- and I will NOT I will NOT allow another person to infringe on my right : to not go where I don't want to go, to not be where I dont' want to actually be- in any conversation, in participation in any conversation.

& let it be that I can assert my right to enjoy a rose along the way or see the sky clouds, mist, dawn, mountain tops- long highways- night and day skies - and breathe when I want to breathe If I want to,

that no one, that no person, will ever be allowed to abruptly muscle in and BY ME be allowed to say: any conversation or diversion into others' planned anger or grief wanted to speak into or through me- in ANY further moment or day.

for it it my moment to see the sun & dance not another's to spew forth anger stretch guts out of me near emotive guillutine using ME.

Let the moonlight tonight be an ode of joy if I let it be

etc.,while in the process of leaving the LDS Church or what I call: our tribe.

We can choose how we deal with and navigate the treacherous waters with friends and relatives, in this process. We can be the same loving, kind, polite people we always were, or we can be angry, nasty, rude, and engage in name calling and derogatory, destructive behavior sometimes responding in kind.

We can learn that we teach people how to treat us.

We can learn some new skills: setting clear personal boundaries, critical thinking skills, learning to be a skeptic, empowering ourselves to govern our own lives, etc.

We can learn how to take our power back and where we have power and where we do not.

We can learn what it means to say no and mean no, and what it means to be assertive and firm.

We can learn the skills to deal with the human behaviors of: betrayal, hurt, pain, abuse, lies, and on and on.

We can learn what is about us, and what is about someone else and how to separate the two.

We can learn to have control of our own mind, emotions, thinking, behavior, actions and take responsibility for them.

We can learn the value and power of humor/laughter, gratitude, appreciation, etc.

We can learn the power of love and how it leads to inner peace and happiness.: anger, resentments, bitterness, etc. all go away when love is present.

There is so much enjoyment, happiness, fun, laughter and joy, love and inner peace in my life once I learned to take care of myself and chart my own course, and take my power back. And I learned that by changing my mind about the kind of life I wanted to live, after I left the LDS Church and took over the instruction of my own life.

Very interesting reply bigern22. The core incivility that drove them out initially is the same and they're responsible too. n/t

I will say, "This hate and intolerance you are slinging at me right now is the same reason Mormons wound up in Utah." I think that should curtail most of it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2010 06:19AM by bigern22.

I feel no need to educate them, confront them or de-convert them. I feel sorry for them and will leave them to their ignorance.

If they confront me, the only reply I have is "That's not true".

... as is the OP, I might be willing to compromise myself for the sake of "keeping the peace" as well.

Unlike the OP, however, I personally removed those oppressive shackles many moons ago.

I don't have to play nice with mormons because I'm not beholding to any such creature. As a result, I derive great satisfaction and "inner-peace" knowing that I can tell mormons or anyone else to f**k-off at any time.

Again, that's hard to do when you suffer from TBMdependency (that one's mine, Cabbie).

Here's some typical black & white thinking on the matter:

"We can choose how we deal with and navigate the treacherous waters with friends and relatives, in this process. We can be the same loving, kind, polite people we always were, or we can be angry, nasty, rude, and engage in name calling and derogatory, destructive behavior sometimes responding in kind."

That's it? ... Those are the only options?

I don't think so!

Of course, such "waters" are only "treacherous" to the TBMdependent. He or she, according to such logic, can either bend to mormon wishes and keep his or her position or be rude and nasty and lose his or her situation. In any event, the TBM remains in complete control.

If, on the other hand, one has no TBMdependencies, one can do or say whatever one wishes without fear of repercussion.

TBM family, for example, solicits me for a "donation" whenever one of their eight-billion kids enters the mission field. I respectfully decline each time by informing them that I'm not in the habit of subsidizing cult recruiting. They always get upset, but I don't care because I'm really not in the habit of subsidizing cult recruiting. That's not being rude or nasty. That's just telling it like it is. Not my problem if they get all bent out of shape.

Still, according to the OP, in order to reach Nirvana we must placate, please or otherwise bend to the wishes of our "tribe" which I call stupid cultist mormon family members. I suppose that's true if your "tribe" or stupid cultist mormon family members are paying your bills and providing your livelihood. But for those who've yet to experience the liberating freedom of complete disconnect from the cult ... Well, you're just letting the best things in life pass you by!

Coffee, anyone?

Timothy

Again, Mr. T, for some reason, you missed the meaning of every one of my points, put words in my mouth, again, and distorted my statements, again. Big Time. Again. And for what reason? I have NO idea.

Life is short! Oh so short!
I'll continue to be true to myself and choose the positive benefits of love, compassion and understanding and tolerance and an attitude of gratitude, toward my friends and loved ones, no matter their religious beliefs, focusing on the power of living in the present, which is how I want to be treated.

That is the essence of freedom.

And the greatest part? There is no fear. None.


None of this frame of mind requires placating anyone,subsidizing religion, etc. or trying to reach Nirvana.

... I'd probably be in denial as well.

You wrote:

"My comments are mostly about human relationships and how to deal with people we don't agree with and/or treat us poorly."

To be more accurate, your comments are about YOUR relationships and how YOU deal with people YOU don't agree with and/or treat YOU poorly. Let me also add for the one-millionth time that disgreeing with you does not constitute poor treatment directed toward you.

I didn't miss the meaning of your points. They all apply to the Exmo who is willingly trapped in the TBM lifestyle. Its not that you want the relationships to continue for the sake of the relationships so much as it is your need to hold on to the rather comfortable livelihood provided by those relationships.

In that respect, life is, indeed, too short!

Your comments would carry much more weight were you not bound to mormons who grant your wants and needs. Of course, if you were truly independent, you likely wouldn't make such comments.

Timothy



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2010 01:05PM by Timothy.

The great thing about knowing who you are and what you want from your relationships is that there is no confusion, no denial.

Mr. T you don't seem to be able to understand what I write.
For some reason, you get it "wrong" every time.
Your comments prove clearly that you have no understanding of what I am talking about.

But why the need to twist them, making outrageous accusations.
I have no idea.

It's absurd to think I am "bound to Mormons" who grant my wants and needs. That's totally false, and a ridiculous statement.

Clearly, you have no idea who I am, what I mean by my statements, and for some reason, have some driving need to twist them, and add things I never mentioned.

If there is benefit in what I write and share, fine. If not, it's fine to ignore it.

If you think I am trapped living in a Mormon lifestyle, (whatever you think that is), you are not paying attention to what I am saying in my posts.

It's a mystery to me why what I post bothers you so much. Why would you be so driven to make these feeble attempts to discredit what I post, change what I post, twist what I post, make outrageous, inaccurate claims about what I post? It's one big personal attack from beginning to end, finding fault with everything I post like you are some kind of gate keeper that must shut down a voice you don't want to hear.



I suggest you ignore my posts. :-)

Show me where I've misunderstood or misrepresented you.

And by-the-by, Q, I'll respond to any post I see fit. You don't get to dictate policy on that either.

You wrote:

"It's absurd to think I am "bound to Mormons" who grant my wants and needs. That's totally false, and a ridiculous statement."

Why is that false, absurd or ridiculous? ...According to what you've written over the years, you've never stood on your own two feet at any point in your life. You've been a kept woman from the get-go. Tell me, Q, does your retirement fund come from those part-time jobs you worked or are you living off hubby's? ... Don't worry. I already know. As always, you'll carefully skirt the question anyhow.

I have suggested nothing you suggest, nor have I twisted what you've said. You live with and love mormons. That's great. But you're not qualified to instruct folks on how to properly conduct their relationships with TBMs because your experiences are far too narrow and, dare I say, highly questionable.

Again, you define disagreement as an attempt to discredit. I simply don't agree with the following statement:

"We can choose how we deal with and navigate the treacherous waters with friends and relatives, in this process. We can be the same loving, kind, polite people we always were, or we can be angry, nasty, rude, and engage in name calling and derogatory, destructive behavior sometimes responding in kind."

The reason my disagreement is a "mystery" to you is because you lay it out as an absolute when it is not.

But, having lived a mostly sheltered life, how would you know?

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2010 01:39PM by Timothy.

You're being unusually polite today, Timothy.
What are you up to?

for decades, and owned my own businesses, in my name.

I have, since I was 14, worked and earned my own personal money, working part time and later full time to contribute to the family finances for decades, much of it in banking, and other jobs, including working for the LDS Church an including volunteer work.
That is personal info I usually don't share, but I will, now to clear up these crazy ideas.

You clearly have NO idea who I am. Your comments are about someone else.

Nothing is an absolute. I think we all know that.

I'm doing what everyone else does: sharing my opinion and what I have learned and know works for me. The idea is to learn from others if it is something that will work for us. If not, that's fine.

Clearly, you have no idea who I am, because what you claim to know about me is not me. Not even close. You have someone else in mind. I don't know who you are talking about, but it's not me.

Anyone who knows me personally, and you do not, knows that what you have said about me couldn't possibly be me. You have make comments that have nothing to do with me, and are not about me. I have no idea why.

It's a mystery who you have in your mind. It's not me.

What I propose and post doesn't work for everyone, just as what everyone else posts doesn't work for me, some yes, but not all.

Leaving the LDS Church is clearly a Do It Yourself Project with no manual. We can gather ideas from others, but ultimately, we must chart our own course and do it our way. This board is a life saver for many. It's not just intellectual information, but it's emotional support and an insiders understanding of what it means to be LDS and what it means to leave it.

There are no right and wrong, only truth paths in that process. Much of it is hit and miss, try this, or try that.
Only we know how the dynamics of our family works and how to manage our own place in it while we make changes.

I don't think any two members leave the LDS Church the same way. It's very personal, and individual. There are similarities, of course.
Only we know what works best for us. And sometimes, it's difficult to find what works best.

My goal for the rest of my life is to find and practice as best I can, the positive attitudes and fame of mind that brings me the most freedom, happiness, laughter, and joy and share it with my family and friends, living in the present moments.

I have long ago left Mormonism and all it requires to live it.
All of my life, before I converted, my life as a Mormon have contributed to who I am today. None of it is a waste, in my view. I did what I thought was best at the time with the information I had at the time, just like we all do. When I found/received new information, I could make a different choice and decision. And I did.
I don't believe in: regrets, wouldas, shouldas, couldas, what ifs, fantasy parents, siblings, etc. in my life.

I will continue to look for the best in people and enjoy that, regardless of their religious beliefs.

I'm happy to still be alive (I turned 69 yesterday) and enjoying my life, ever minute of it, with my family and friends.

"I have long ago left Mormonism and all it requires to live it."

Really? .... All this time I thought you lived with and loved mormons.

You're still in the middle of it.

Timothy

we have been enjoying is! He's just as baffled as I am! ut he did have a good laugh!

We live predominately, now as we are retired, on social security benefits, including my check from all those years I worked, including when I contributed both as the employee and the employee. Fortunately, we live in a very inexpensive area.

Many of my contributions to that "comfortable livelihood" (ROFL) was as an employer and employee.
Our needs are very small now, so it doesn't take much to keep us "comfortable"! :-)
We can even afford to go out for my birthday to a nice restaurant and SHARE.... a meal! :-)

All under the careful protection of others.

Its one thing to say you've done all those things. Its another to say you've done them on your own.

Guess I struck a nerve!

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2010 03:03PM by Timothy.

I have no idea why it's impossible for you to believe me. Hubby said he wanted you to let him know when you found that "comfortable living"! He got a good laugh out of that. I try to tell him funny stuff as much as possible!

Yup. You have no idea who I am, how I have lived my life,nor do you know me, personally, or you would not think I am making up my life experiences - some private info I just shared.

I even remember how much money I could make in a day picking strawberries (I was not very fast) in the hills from 5 a.m to 11 a.m. in Oregon in my 14th and 15th summers -- about $2.40 a day.
Ya. It was a sheltered life! LOL

You've successfully hi-jacked your own thread.

And with hubby's help no less!

Timothy

much power we give to others who treat us poorly,(criticize, twist our comments, make false accusations, spread gossip, find fault, put us down,etc., etc.,), when they don't agree with us!
Yes, indeed, hubby and I got a good laugh out of that silliness.