Told my TBM wife about John Taylor's speech in England denying the practice of polygamy while himself having seven wives. She does not believe it and is asking for documentation of his statement. Who wrote down what he said, etc. Also where is documentation that he had plural wives at the time. Any help would be appreciated.

Three Nights Public Discussion.

http://olivercowdery.com/texts/1850Tayl.htm

I'll post the lying parts soon. Just wanted to be the first to reply. :)

Scroll down to John Taylor's Lies. There are lots of LDS leaders lies while you are there.



http://packham.n4m.org/lying.htm



John Taylor's Lies

The Lie:
In a public debate with Protestant ministers at Boulogne-sur-Mer, France, in 1850, John Taylor (then an apostle, later to become the third president of the church), said:
We are accused here of polygamy, and actions the most indelicate, obscene, and disgusting, such that none but a corrupt and depraved heart could have contrived. These things are too outrageous to admit of belief; therefore... I shall content myself to reading our views of chastity and marriage, from a work published by us, containing some of the articles of our Faith. "Doctrine and Covenants," page 330, .... "we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman but one husband." (Three Nights' Public Discussion..., published by John Taylor, Liverpool 1850, photocopy in Sharon Banister, For Any Latter-day Saint, Fort Worth 1988, p. 289)

The Truth:
At the time of this discussion, John Taylor was married to eleven wives in addition to his first (legal) wife: Elizabeth Kaighin, Jane Ballantyne, Anna Ballantyne, Mary A. Oakley, Mary A. Utley, Mary Ramsbottom, Sarah Thornton, Lydia Dibble (Hyrum Smith's polygamous widow), Ann Hughlings, Sophia Whittaker, and Harriet Whittaker. He had also been married to Mercy R. Fielding Smith (Hyrum Smith's widow), but the marriage had ended in divorce. (listed in D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power [Vol. 1], Salt Lake City 1994, p. 597)

Notice that Taylor cited the Mormon scripture Doctrine and Covenants as it was in effect and binding on all Mormons at that time. Thus Taylor (as well as Hyrum Smith and Joseph Smith) was in violation of the official laws of his own church, as well as the civil law. Notice that Taylor describes polygamy as "most indelicate, obscene, and disgusting, such that none but a corrupt and depraved heart could have contrived. ... too outrageous to admit of belief." Surely he could not have been sincere in such an opinion about a doctrine that he himself was practicing, and which he practiced and defended (as soon as it was officially admitted by Brigham Young in 1852) until the end of his life.

Ironically, Taylor later took the opposite position:

"...we want nothing secret nor underhanded, and I for one want no association with things that cannot be talked about and will not bear investigation."

John Taylor, March 2, 1879, Journal of Discourses 20:264

Just realise this lying was in France.

It was another LDS Asspostle doing the Lying in England and lied in the Millenial Star assuring the English that Polygamy was a lie spread by antimormons.

I think it's the case where Martha Brotherton was tricked into joining them, left England and found herself stuck and being coerced into Polygamy by Smith and Young, who both being refused, Smith then tried to keep her quiet and proceeded to blacken her name when she tried to warn others. It's hideous.

Maybe someone can fill in more details.

"I think it's the case where Martha Brotherton was tricked into joining them, left England and found herself stuck and being coerced into Polygamy by Smith and Young, who both being refused, Smith then tried to keep her quiet and proceeded to blacken her name when she tried to warn others."

Smity, Young, Pratt, and other secret polygamists trashed the reputations and character of both Martha Brotherton and Nancy Rigdon, Sidney's 19-year-old daughter. That's what split Sidney Rigdon from Smith and caused him to leave Nauvoo.

There's lots of info on this at

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,203538,203538#msg-203538

Excuse me, but are any of us shocked to learn that a Mormon leader lied in public. Just this last week two of them were in Boise doing the same thing.

The only thing that would shock me at this point would be to hear one of them actually tell the truth, but, of course, it just isn't in their DNA.

Fanny Stenhouse mentions this also in her book called Tell it All. It can be read for free on-line.

I cover it in the following blog post:

http://untanglingmybrain.blogspot.com/2014/09/polygamy-and-honesty.html

I also have a screen cap image from familysearch.org that shows his wedding dates so that it is clear that he was lying.

Do they still ask if you are being honest in all your dealings with your fellow man to get your TR? I guess that only applies to your dealings with a few folks that you don't want screwing you.

was next door to a large polygamist place housing 3 wives, each on a different floor.
My father (grandson of a polygamist) had several conversations with the polygamist when the fellow was in town. (The fellow had other wives elsewhere.)

This man told my father that when polygamy was disbanded, President John Taylor called SEVEN faithful polygamists (one of which was his father) into his office and set them apart to carry on the practice until the Savior returned. They were to do it in secret.

I believe this man's story. I believe that John Taylor did that.

Not to dispute the fact that Taylor may well have done what you state, but it should be noted that polygamy was not "disbanded" in Taylor's time. The practice wasn't officially ended until the presidency of Joseph F. Smith with his issuance of the Second Manifesto in 1904, some seventeen years after Taylor's death.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2015 07:23PM by Templar.

The practice ended in or about 1954.

You have the correct date of the second manifesto, but like the first, cannot be taken at face value because it's mostly lies.

New plural marriages ended in 1905, or 1906, or 1909, depending on the historian you choose.

But the practice did not end until those marriages ended. The last documented plural marriage was the grandpa of current Apostle Eyring and two cousins of Mitt who runs for president every 4 years whose name is banned. When one of the tow sister wives died (literally sister wives) that ended the practice in the Brighamite sect.

ASteve,

I fully agree. I, of course, was speaking about newly constituted polygamous marriages - not the final end of the existing ones. I don't think anyone ever expected the men to simply abandon their existing wives. In any case, to be more clear I changed my statement from "fully ended" to "officially ended".

Oh, and BTW, the name Romney is no longer banned as you can see. I happened to discover it yesterday.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2015 07:30PM by Templar.

http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/mormon/ptchfth.htm

My ancestor, Ann Pitchforth, deserted her husband, kidnapped their 2 kids, left England and married Taylor in Nauvoo in 1846. She had died by the time Taylor gave that speech. Her son, Taylor's stepson, came to Utah in One of the first wagon trains.

Her maiden name was Ann Hughlings.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2015 05:23PM by Heresy.

I think the speech was actually in France as part of a debate, and he may have had as many as 11 wives. Whatever the case, you can easily discern that it is part and parcel to the LDS tradition of lying for the Lord. And in fact, I think it was Taylor who coined the phrase.

Ask her why she thinks its not true. I'm just curious.

BTW - Lots of LDS prophets and apostles were denying their polygamy, including Joseph Smith.

In case you weren't aware, the church put out some juicy info about the church's history. Read these to her. She'll deny they are true. Then you can point out to her that they are from the church. Then you can ask her why she thinks the church is lying about its polygamy in these essays LOL.

https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-and-families-in-early-utah?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints?lang=eng

"Ask her why she thinks its not true. I'm just curious.

"BTW - Lots of LDS prophets and apostles were denying their polygamy, including Joseph Smith."

Yes, all of the church leaders denied teaching and practicing polygamy until 1852. Some contemporary documentation of those lies came from Mormons who were disturbed over them. I quote some of them in this post:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1448276,1450139#msg-1450139

One of the members, Fanny Stenhouse, related how church leaders' lies affected the church's fortunes in Britain:

"In fact, so great had
been the distrust occasioned by Polygamy, that in the report ending June 30th,
I853, it was stated that from the whole British Church-which then numbered very
nearly thirty-one thousand souls-seventeen hundred and seventy-six had been
excommunicated for apostasy! Of those who remained faithful I cannot give a
much more cheering account. The Elders who visited President Marsden made as
damaging reports of the condition of the Saints as their worst enemies could
desire. All that my young friend, Mary Burton, had told me did not equal the
truth of what I saw for myself. No one had any confidence now in what the
Elders said;-how could they be trusted after so many years of deception?"

"...the one-wife system not only degenerates the human family, both physically and intellectually, but it is entirely incompatible with philosophical notions of immortality; it is a lure to temptation, and has always proved a curse to a people." - Prophet John Taylor, Millennial Star, Vol. 15, p. 227"

Contrast that Statement with this one.

"We are accused here of polygamy, and actions the most indelicate, obscene, and disgusting, such that none but a corrupt and depraved heart could have contrived. These things are too outrageous to admit of belief; therefore... I shall content myself to reading our views of chastity and marriage, from a work published by us, containing some of the articles of our Faith. "Doctrine and Covenants," page 330, .... "we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman but one husband." (Three Nights' Public Discussion..., published by John Taylor, Liverpool 1850, photocopy in Sharon Banister, For Any Latter-day Saint, Fort Worth 1988, p. 289)


Primary children "Follow the prophet, Follow the prophet, he knows the way!"

BY made similar comments. Did they really believe this? If so, are they admitting that they would be off sleeping with prostitutes regularly if they didn't have their many "wives"? That's sure what it sounds like. These guys were some sick f%#*s.

KUED

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdlJUuhNXJ4


how about Hinckley statements on polygamy, LIES more recent than Taylor's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCN3AvH4JRg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvv4zHiuz48

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bch8X4NJH7c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyXyxfAodtQ

none of these videos can be considered the final word on MORmON Lies and polygamy ......because MORmONS still are not done LYING about the matter.