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Posted by: Truth B Told ( )
Date: July 04, 2015 09:04PM

Just finished this and its GREAT! So many parallels to what I experienced in my 25 yrs in Mormonism.

I wonder how much L Ron Hubbard studied Joseph Smith if at all - I could totally see him using Mormonism as somewhat of a model for what he ultimately wanted to accomplish.

And on the flip side, I wonder how much the LDS church has studied Scientology in recent years to get a measure for potential fall out of certain PR ideas. Both need to keep the masses sheltered.. I bet Miscavige and some high up in the church office building stay up late bouncing ideas off each other, lol.

The whole idea of not getting the full story in scientology till you've invested tons of time and money was exactly like the mormon endowment experience.

I could go on and on.. do yourself a favor and watch this, you won't be disappointed.

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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: July 06, 2015 08:32AM

I read the book. It was a shocker.

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Posted by: brandywine ( )
Date: July 06, 2015 12:35PM

It was learning about Scientology that got me questioning Mormonism.

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Posted by: terrydactyl ( )
Date: July 06, 2015 08:45PM

Perhaps the book would make a nice present to a TBM?

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Posted by: adoylelb ( )
Date: July 06, 2015 02:16PM

I'm reading the book right now, it's definitely a shocker.

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Posted by: praydude ( )
Date: July 06, 2015 05:50PM

It was an awesome Documentary. I do think that cults share a lot of common ground but that does not mean they look to each other for guidance. Perhaps they do on some level...who knows?

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Posted by: azsteve ( )
Date: July 07, 2015 10:15AM

When will someone publish a documentary like this about Mormonism? The public needs to see re-enactments of the throat-slashing version of the endowment ceremony and hear the stories of the people who threw-up in the parking lot afterward. The public needs to be educated about the fact that a ban on blacks holding the priesthood meant more than just preventing them from leading the congregation on Sundays, but the near full ostracism of them from everything most valued by the membership, including eternal ceiling of their families in the temples, and the fellowship found in the priesthood meetings that they were prohibited from attending. The public needs to see all of the dirty laundry of the Mormon church also, not just the few things that the church leaders couldn't hide. The public needs to know about the details that most people would otherwise never find out about because the members are too brainwashed to reveal those things.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2015 10:19AM by azsteve.

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Posted by: MormonThinker ( )
Date: July 07, 2015 01:25PM

Here's a write-up we did of some similar thinking between Scientology and Mormonism after 'Going Clear' aired.

We did write the producer and suggested doing a Mormon version.

http://mormonthink.com/glossary/scientology.htm

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Posted by: Truth B Told ( )
Date: July 07, 2015 02:15PM

Thanks for sharing that page! Its a great comparison and like it says at the end, I hope HBO makes a similar documentary about Mormonism!

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Posted by: torturednevermo ( )
Date: July 07, 2015 03:52PM

That was a really good read mormonthinker, kudos for linking that (and to Mormon Think for producing and publishing it.) It raised s few thoughts for me.

Right off the top, I am curious if what allowed the producers of ‘going clear’ to take such an exposing look at scientology had something to do with the general public having an impression that scientology is a cult already? That makes it much less risky to expose the harsh aspects of the organization, because people already have a more or less negative opinion of it to begin with. I don’t know if they were changing people’s minds regarding scientology, so much as they were just giving the (true) but juicy details the public was already prepared to hear. Also, if scientology is worth 1 billion, and the Mormon church is worth nearly 100 billion, that together with the publics unawareness of how much of a cult Mormonism is could be a barrier to making a documentary about it, without fearing some sort of backlash against the people who made such a documentary. Anyway, these are the thoughts that arose when I considered making an expose about the Mormon church.

Further to these thoughts, notice how the PBS documentary felt they had to balance a bit of mild poking at Mormon historical teachings with later shedding almost a positive and lighthearted view of Mormons in the last half of the documentary. Obviously, somebody felt they had to tiptoe around the subject without really digging into the truth behind Mormonism much at all. It almost sounds like somebody was afraid to ruffle feathers by exposing too much information, and then chose to end on a positive note. After all, even a few weeks of investigating a site such as exmormon.org would uncover much more shocking information to the general public than just a few odd views regarding history. It’s the personally harmful cult aspects that will pop people’s eyes open and drop their jaws, not some silly points regarding inaccurate historical beliefs. Most people can see that all religions have some discrepancies regarding history, and so this wouldn’t raise people’s eyebrows much at all, really. That makes me wonder what was really up with that PBS documentary, because it more or less seems to be inconsequential fluff. It makes me again wonder if there is some fear regarding exposing the darker side of Mormonism that would preclude someone from wanting to make a hard hitting expose about them.

Finally, and a slight shift in topic, was my last thought. As a never Mormon, and with that PBS documentary in mind, I would like to comment on the question of what is a better zinger against Mormonism; the inaccurate Mormon version of history, or the way people’s lives suffer and are torn apart by a life in Mormonism. I have noticed that to an exmormon, finding out you have been lied to about the doctrine and history is a big revelation; one that affects them deeply, because everybody hates finding out they’ve been lied to. I notice that exmormons often gravitate to the history and doctrine as if that is something that will resonate with the rest of society and shed light on the cultish nature of Mormonism.

However, I would like to pitch in and add that as an outsider, the false history is in fact not the thing that really resonates with outsiders much at all beyond just curiosity. After all, like I said above, many religions have myth like stories about their history, and to an outsider, they are not likely to find much fault with that beyond saying, ‘ok, so it’s another religion, good for them, as long as they’re happy and getting something good from being a member.’ Instead, I would assert that to an outsider it’s the horror stories of families and marriages torn apart, the shunning, the coercion to tithe, the complete obedience to authority, the fear placed into children (and the list could go on.) It is these stupefying and controlling aspects over peoples personal lives that is going to be what resonates with people on the outside and help them to appreciate how Mormonism is a cult just like scientology. It’s the personal stories of hurt that will resonate far more than a focus on beliefs about history or doctrine. That’s what should be exposed if people are to overcome the false public impressions they have about Mormonism. That is where the PBS documentary failed entirely, and that’s what a documentary exposing Mormonism as a cult would need to focus on. Let’s hope that sort of documentary gets made someday.

Again, thanks for your great essay in your link, and good luck, I hope a version of going clear does get made exposing the hurt the Mormon church has brought into so many lives. I, as a nevermormon, am convinced it is as dangerous a cult as scientology; maybe even more so, because Mormonism has hidden itself so well from the scrutiny of the outside world, a world who sees them as happy and fulfilled churchgoers rather than broken and hurting cult members. Again, thanks for your efforts, and thanks for letting me share my perspective.


To summarize my two main points:

1. Could they get away with making such a documentary without repercussions?
2. If they do make one, they should focus more on the hurt, not on the history or doctrine. That’s what the general public will respond to with shock and dismay. People believe stupid things all over everwhere; but nobody likes to see innocent people mistreated and abused. That's what exposes it as a 'cult' in the modern sense of the word.

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Posted by: MormonThinker ( )
Date: July 08, 2015 12:05PM

torturednevermo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> 1. Could they get away with making such a
> documentary without repercussions?
> 2. If they do make one, they should focus more on
> the hurt, not on the history or doctrine. That’s
> what the general public will respond to with shock
> and dismay. People believe stupid things all over
> everwhere; but nobody likes to see innocent people
> mistreated and abused. That's what exposes it as a
> 'cult' in the modern sense of the word.

MY ANSWERS

1) You mean HBO? Sure if they are brave enough then they could certainly survive that just as they did with the Big Love series and especially the temple episode. Of course any other number of outfits could produce the documentary. The key is to not let the church attempt to run the show, They could give their perspective but from a more defensive position. There are enough pro-LDS documentaries out there.

2) Focusing on the hurt will appeal to non-members viewing it but will do nothing to educate the members as they won't learn anything new. I think exposing the historical issues is important as that would impact how members viewing the documentary would then view their religion and might lead them to the first step of investigating it further.

So a good documentary would have to balance this. Showing the temple ceremony is great shock value to non-members but would only be really useful to members if it showed how the origins were Masonic and not at all what they were taught at church and riddled with problems once it's analyzed.

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Posted by: torturednevermo ( )
Date: July 08, 2015 01:18PM

Thanks for your response. I agree on both points. To the first point, yes, there are bound to be documentary makers willing to take on the church; that’s what a good documentary maker will do.

To the second point, I agree as well. To reach both audiences you could balance between exposing the doctrine and history as a way of speaking to the members, and between exposing the social harm done to members as a way of speaking to the general public. I think it is important to send a message to the general public to counter the feel good image the church has pumped out to society. If the church got a bad reputation, such as scientology has taken on, then they would have a harder time maintaining the position they enjoy within our society.

Above all, this documentary should avoid the modern phenomenon of media style ‘balanced reporting’, where equal air time is given to presenting a positive stance as is given to ‘balancing’ it with a negative stance; just make it an expose, period. The church certainly doesn’t give any platform to negative views about the church in their publications, and it works; it frames a perception devoid of any criticism. Forget the balanced reporting model; that’s just a phenomenon created by corporate media and is used to undermine and weaken criticisms surrounding issues. Just make it a hard hitting expose of the church, and let them make their own documentary to refute the charges if they choose to. The balanced reporting model is a form of propaganda and doesn’t belong in a good expose documentary; the documentary shouldn’t pull any punches.

The PBS show obviously tried to 'balance' their story with pro's and con's, and that just leaves people confused and amounts to nothing.

Thanks again for your response.

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Posted by: moose ( )
Date: July 07, 2015 06:00PM

Here's an e-mail I sent to Alex Gibney back in April of this year:

"Dear Mr. Gibney,

Over the weekend I watched your film 'Going Clear'. I was stunned! I am an active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, also known as 'Mormons'. As such, I saw numerous parallels between the two organizations. I suspect, however, that LDS, Inc. (Intellectual Reserve, Inc.?) has, by an order of magnitude, more money and certainly more members. I am currently 'studying' my way out, but since I was born and raised Mormon, with a genealogical tree going back to the founder, Joseph Smith, as well as many other 'notables', it's a hard process. In the Mormon faith, 'apostates' tend to be shunned. No, it's not a formal thing. But it happens. It's painful. No different that the Scientologist's 'Disconnect' policy.

If you look at the current leadership, you see a group of 15 men who average approximately 80+ years in age! They were raised in another era! They may be aware of current political and social issues, but they are really clueless! I say this as a 60 year old!

My point in all this, as light a treatment as I've given, is to point out another 'opportunity' to present the Mormons in a similar light as 'Going Clear' did for Scientology. Unvarnished truth, in other words.

If 'Going Clear' has created too many problems for you, as I understand it could very well do, would you mind passing this along to another film maker who might have an interest in such a project, as the time is ripe now due to the release of your project?

If you or anyone else is interested in background research, I might be able to help. More likely, I could direct you to others who might be better prepared to offer such help! In any case you and others are free to contact me at my e-mail address.

Lastly, thank you very much for all you did to create and release 'Going Clear' and for all you are and, no doubt will be, encountering as 'push back' from Scientology.

Respectfully yours,

Moose"



What came as a response:

"Hi Moose,

Thank you for writing. I passed along your email to Alex.

All the best -"



Nothing further.

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Posted by: MormonThinker ( )
Date: July 09, 2015 12:42PM

I wrote something similar after you first posted that Moose but never heard from them.

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Posted by: moose ( )
Date: July 09, 2015 02:40PM

I sure wish something would happen...

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Posted by: The other Sofia ( )
Date: July 07, 2015 06:39PM

Where did you get the DVD to watch this movie? I have been watching for it on Netflix and Amazon but haven't found it yet. I read the book. Great.

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Posted by: Truth B Told ( )
Date: July 07, 2015 07:15PM

Its on HBOgo, that's where I saw it.

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Posted by: The other Sofia ( )
Date: July 09, 2015 05:42PM

Thank you. I will look for it there.

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Posted by: Gone girl ( )
Date: July 07, 2015 06:49PM

I have a group of TBM friends who read this in book club. They were all disgusted and astounded by the horrors of the Scientology cult. Not one of them made any connections to the Mormon religion. Go figure!

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Posted by: azsteve ( )
Date: July 07, 2015 11:06PM

I think that if an objective and fully inclusive documentary about the Mormon cult were produced, the general public would be shocked. I think that the key and power to damage the church this way would come from brutal objectivity and full and candid disclosures. It couldn't even be called anti-mormon if it is truthful and accurate. The general public won't tolerate mormon spin either. Any response by the church to blame the producers or former members who participated in the production would backfire. All the church would be able to do is to endure the shame and watch people resign their membership afterward. In this environment and as a part of the documentary, should be a discussion about the church's finances, together with heart-felt pleas from a few former members to not donate any money to the church, no tithing... period. If done correctly, a well done documentary could have a very serious impact on the church's cash flow over the long-term.

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