Let's say at work one day as a fiduciary of some business deal or at your TBM brothe's home office, who is a stake president, you came across some private letter, financial record, or other document worthy of a lame post on smoking gun or wiki leaks about church finances or guidance to cover up abuses of power. Would you do it?

Do we want to damage the church? Do we care enough to be malicious?

I think we have a responsibility to tell the truth. If it was something harmful to members of the church or an admission of lies I'd pass it on.

brandywine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think we have a responsibility to tell the
> truth. If it was something harmful to members of
> the church or an admission of lies I'd pass it on.

This. Well said.
Dirty little secrets and dirty little lies (or big ones). Being honest about them, and opening the church up to the light of day, isn't being "malicious." It's being honest.

Oh, and I would have NO problem whatsoever honestly wiping the church off the face of the earth. It's that harmful.

If I could expose them without it coming back to me, then yes I wouldn't hesitate. The cost part is tricky. Don't do anything that will cost you a relationship you value. This ship will sink on its own.

It would be awesome if Anonymous would hack into the LDS Church's financial records.

+1

I've had the exact same thought!

I would take the church down in a heartbeat. My family and friends, dear people whom I love, are in the church's clutches and I'd do whatever I could to release them. That, and I believe truth makes the world a better place. I'd want an injustice made known, religious or otherwise.

How about at the cost of seeing your children post divorce? I have counted the value of nationally damaging the LDS church and came to a high cost of personal expense that may have been too high for me. They do come after you in any way they can once you sting them.

Leaking an actual document with sensitive, potentially damaging, but true infomation in it? Sure, I'd do that.

At the cost of lying? nope.

Why would you have to lie? Or do you mean by keeping your identity secret? Like most of us already do here.... Believe me from experience--keep your identity protected. They will come after you and destroy anything they can about you if they get knowledge of your postings and there are connections in your life to the church (biz, financial, familial, etc).

I wouldn't have to lie. The OP asked at what cost, how malicious would you get to "damage" the church.?

I was just saying I would reveal true factual info or leak it, etc, but I wouldn't go as far as to lie or make up falsehoods to "damage" it. Not to conceal my identity....I don't care about the church knowing who I am and I'm not entrenched in a mormon life, job, community, etc.

No downside for me at all. My parents are dead, my brother is inactive, my kids are nevermo, my Mormon relatives are irrelevant to my life, and I'm married to a Catholic. Any damage I could cause would last 1 - 2 generations tops and would be for the greater good, so I'd do it with a clear conscience.

Ron Burr



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2015 06:32PM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

At the cost of family that didn't like me anyway. I got off cheap.

Thanks to you and your brother Will for all you both do. Wonderful truths you have raised. Praise to the Bagleys.

Jesux of Nazdaq Wrote:
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> Praise to the Bagleys.

Will, Pat and Don. The unholy trinity of exmoism.

If you come into the information as a fiduciary and leak it you are risking your career and possible legal liability.

This means if you are found out you will lose your career, probably be successfully sued and possibly face criminal sanctions.

If you "find" it at someone's house and take it, you have stolen it, which also opens you to liability.

Why the fixation with financial information, how would that damage the church?

The church is already damaged by its own doctrine, scriptures and practices. Many have left the church or, at least stopped paying tithing over these issues. However many TBMs are unmoved by them.

What would some financial disclosure do? Let's examine some hypothetical scenarios:-

(A) Documentary evidence that Monson is paid $10 million a year and the other apostles each receive $5 million a year.
TBM responses (1) I don't believe you (no matter how much hard evidence you produce) or (2) they are worth it for running such a large and successful church or (3) leaders of other churches make much more (televangelists).

(B) Documentary evidence that gay prostitutes are brought into the COB to be used by top church officials including some apostles.
Already happened at the Vatican and the Roman Catholic Church still has over 1 billion members.

(C) Documentary evidence that each of the 15 apostles has received 1 billion dollars from church assets.
TBM responses (1) I don't believe you (no matter how much hard evidence you produce) or (2) they are worth it for running such a large and successful church or (3) leaders of other churches make much more (televangelists).

I guess what I am saying is I don't see this kind of information doing too much damage to the church amongst TBMs, compared with that already done by their proven dishonesty and bigotry. The fact that their scriptures (BoM, BoA, D&C) are works of fiction, apparent to anyone who seriously considers the issues.

If I am wrong and anyone can suggest something that would seriously damage them, please let me know. I do have some knowledge of their finances and, if anything you suggest is within my area of knowledge, I will consider disclosing.

Personal cost to me? They have already cost me everything I once held dear, therefore limited further personal cost to me.

I think financial disclosures do hit certain class of members. There are many who have studied the doctrinal and historical issues and then side with the Brethren/essays explanation because they trust that the 15 are witnesses of christ and are better men than Joseph/Brigham and the older crowd, at least when it comes to morals. They follow the instruction to avoid anti-mormon (pro truth) information and stick with the approved script.

But when the purity veil is pulled back on the current leaders, their shelves fall and the willingness to really dig into all the issues and history opens up.

Sometimes, for some people, financial information is the shelf breaker.

And like you, Tom, criticizing the church and coming out in name has cost me almost everything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2015 09:20AM by Jesux of Nazdaq.

Financial shenanigans would hurt the cult because of the media attention it would get. Many of the TBMS would naturally find a way to excuse it, but members who are on the fence would seriously start to jump ship. Plus, evidence of financial transgressions could lead to an iRS investigation, which could ruin the church, depending on how crooked their financial dealings really are. Plus, a big black eye for the church's public image, which we know pisses them off more than anything.

I agree with Tom. Book of Abraham alone is so clear proof that Joseph Smith was not a prophet.
Yet, millions of members do not
a)know about proven falsehood of it
b) know but do not care, that is they still believe.

What more proof could there be than professional egyptologist saying that nothing is correct with Joseph Smith´s "translation" of the ancient Egyptian papyri.

meant to say that b) they do know and yet believe

Tom,

As usual, I fully agree with you on this. I'm convinced that most members believe it because THEY WANT IT TO BE TRUE. The fact that it can readily be shown to be false to anyone with an open mind really doesn't matter to most TBMs (i.e. "my mind is made up - don't confuse me with the facts").

I once pointed out to a TBM that the angel who led Joseph to the golden plates was Nephi, and not Moroni, as now claimed. The TBM replied angrily "I believe what I believe and nothing you show me will change what I believe" and stormed off. Kinda says it all, doesn't it?

I don't really want to "damage the church", but I do feel it's time to come clean.

If Mormons are really told the full truth about Joseph Smith rather than "faith promoting" lies and still want to give the CULT their time and money its their business. Just leave me out of it.

I just think that it is terrible that many of my family and (former) friends are repeatedly lied to in the name of god by a bunch of mentally sick old farts. Packer may be gone, but a jerk like Holland will likely take his place and perpetuate the Mormon myth for his own gratification. New faces - same old BS!

I already did. I left and took my family with me. I'm very active in spreading information to others.

While the church may not feel it now, it will add up in the future. In the long run, they will feel it. IMO, that's the best way for exmos to go about it. First, do your homework and take yourself out. Next, work on getting family and friends out. Do what you can to help people out that you don't know, and may never know.

Eric K, Susan l/S, Annagrammy, and many many more are very good examples of how to go about this.

We will never know, but I would love to know how many Eric has brought out of mormonism. I'm guessing it's in the tens of thousands.

I wonder, if the 15 came out and said that the foundation doctrine is a construct, and that the BofM was made up, if every TBM on the planet would leave. I think there are many who are so invested in the culture of being a Mormon that to not have it to cling to is unimaginable.

Ron Burr

Ron, I doubt everyone would leave I found this interesting blog:
http://bookofmormonspeaks.blogspot.com/2010/03/joseph-smith-on-what-constitution-lacks.html
The author believes that the church is in apostasy and sees corruption with the prophets but clings to the doctrine.

Lots would leave as the Community of Christ found out when they ditched the BoM.

However, may TBMs will stay, believing the church teachings are the right way to live. They do not understand the harm it does.

I did damage the church, when I left. We all did. Members continue to do so when they resign, stop attending and cease giving them money.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2015 02:18PM by wine country girl.

Sheesh, I'm insulted, and so are my friends who are all members of an evil conspiracy that meets regularly at an undisclosed location behind Zion Curtain.

We have no leaders, and our membership is only an informal association, but seriously, there have been a lot of TBM sorts who've had to go off and lick their priesthood parts after being the victims of one of our sorties...

Of course it helps a whole lot that I'm cold sober these days.

You might consider that option.

I do care about helping good people avoid the harm Mormonism can do. I'm very happy to see individuals leave and recover.

Here are a couple of threads from a while back that were somewhat successful in stimulating this conversation.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,759783,759783#msg-759783

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,760317,760317#msg-760317

My main intent was to see how much social relationships and consequences impacted choices in exposing and challenging the Church.

Anonymity does increase a willingness for action. I was imagining at the time that there are people that are aware of financial, legal, and political issues that would have a significant negative impact on the Church. I also think that the main reason why they don't put forward that information, "push the button", are the social consequences of being exposed as the person that revealed the information.

I believe two key things about Mormons and Mormonism.

Mormonism adapts, it will exist in one form or another, because people are determined to embrace their tribe, right or wrong--just shelf the wrong.

Mormonism is not what it used to be or what it will be, but it will still be Mormonism, living prophets!

Whatever damage the Church incurs it will go forward, but that does not mean the issues should not be put forward requiring the Church to adapt. There might be Mormons in your family that are finally reached through whatever the issue exposes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2015 07:06PM by gentlestrength.

Whatever it takes.

Ron Burr

If I had the chance to place the cult on another planet, I would do it so fast heads would spin. I would pulverize the evil piece of sh*t if I could in one second. Do you have such an opportunity? Go for it... the faster this ends the better for the entire world.

You do know that what you are asking is the equivalent of "If you could partially rid the world of a pure evil, would you?"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2015 09:25PM by verilyverily.

exposing something damaging to the church?, like say, video of their highly revered prophet leader saying something so incredibly stupid and embarrassing that it is nearly incomprehensible

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wALvdgurB4

If any body can top this, then it is their sacred duty to share it with everyone. I could not write something like this, and I really really tried.