"My dear friend; You and Mrs. Moose have been on my mind. I am feeling that I may have offended you in some way. Would you allow me to come to your home on Thursday night at 7:00 to visit?"
*sigh*
This may "out" me if you decide to search on FB, but I posted the following in a closed group (closed unless you're a member) yesterday:
----
"Like many of you, I come from Pioneer stock. I am related to most of the Q12+3-2 and some of my roots tangle with Joseph Smith (through his mother), Brigham Young (the cool thing is I'm related to Steve Young), David Patten (first Apostle 'martyr' under Horny Joe's regime) and several others. So, heavy Pioneer stock."
"My ggg grandfather is James Holt. He was born in North Carolina in 1804. He converted to Mormonism, served a mission and pushed a handcart across the plains. He lost his wife and some children to illness (Iowa, across from Nauvoo, was disease-ridden). He first settled just north of Ogden, moved south a time or two and finally settled in Holt township (the surveyed square, not an actual town) in the mouth of Holt Canyon which is about 6 miles from the current city of Enterprise, UT. Utah's Dixie."
"My point in that last paragraph is to confirm the hardiness of my Pioneer stock. They took a licking and kept on ticking."
"I am of that ilk."
"Realizing this, with July 24th fast approaching, I think I'll have a great opportunity to finally "come out" to my wife and family as a firm, unmovable unbeliever. At least an unbeliever in Mormonism. A firm, unmovable believer in truth."
"Our (my family's) ancestors were persecuted for their beliefs. We admire them. Utah even has a Holiday for them (and yours). Are my own efforts to seek for and live according to truth less laudable than my ancestor's?"
"I don't think so!"
"I would like to look forward to a celebration on July 24th of my freedom from Mormonism. In honor of my stalwart Pioneer ancestors. In honor of me."
----
Does this make the Bishop's text divinely inspired?
Not on your life! Coincidences do exist and it has been a while since Mrs. Moose and I attended church, so there's good reason the Bish is "concerned"!
Anyway, it's been a while since I last posted anything of substance and I wanted you all to know I'm still kickin'!
Did you miss me?
*snort*
;^D
For those who will suggest I take the opportunity Thursday to end my relationship with TSCC, I'm way ahead of you! I hope to converse with my wife first, of course. No need to spring something this big on her all of a sudden!
Then, no matter what her reaction, I have finally taken a stand and have begun my journey into being true to myself.
Not an uncommon move on the Bishop's part or any other leader trying to determine what's going on with wayward members. It's perfect for getting the member to say "No Bishop it has nothing to do with you. I just ____________________."
Then the Bishop responds to the real issue if the member will provide it.
I agree. I am thinking what are effective ways to disarm them and challenge their effort to control the narrative. Even if there has been an offense, requiring the point to be explored forces them to express whether he was genuine or not.
If it were someone with whom Moose had little or no interaction it would seem effective.
If he is genuine about worrying about having offended Moose it would allow him to express himself.
Ultimately the Mormon playbook is
Leaves to sin Leaves because offense
Both of these are an insult to the person leaving. If it were the One True Church why would anyone leave the Church over an offense, Pride. Over sin, Pride.
This Mormon leader is trying to influence the discussion by inserting himself into the reason why Moose has not attended for a few months.
Why would he do that? Can't Moose just stop going for his own reasons without asking permission or checking in?
It is a good thing to put the wannabe leader in place.
I don't post there often, but I read. Good for you!
When my aunt was questioning me about my leaving the LDS church, I pointed out to her that her mother joined the LDS church against her family's wishes and that now I was leaving the LDS church, so I was a pioneer not so much different than my own grandmother.
Again! Good for you!
I guess it is a different group as I didn't find your post. and, yes, you are missed here.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2015 06:09PM by cl2.
"moose hunting tag" and he's got you in his TBM scope cross hairs hoping to bag another "restored to full activity temple recommend holder" trophy. Tell him to make like a taxidermist and get stuffed. LOL
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2015 06:18PM by cricket.
You might post, "Bish, not been offended by you or any other person in the ward. However, I have been offended by the lying of the conman, charlatan founder of Mormonism, Joey Smith, and all the lying done since to cover for this poor excuse of a prophet. Bedding 14 year olds, marrying women whose husbands he often sent on a mission prior to bedding their wives, as well as his banging ten or more teenage maidens are only a few of his antics that I find it about time to separate myself from. I do not care to meet with you."
In Judo (the gentle way) you are supposed to use your opponent's momentum against them. If someone comes at you you redirect their motion slightly and put them on the ground.
This "I'm sorry if I may have offended you" is a classic Mormon-judo move. It purpose is to induce momentum in to YOU where you drop your guard, open up, and assure the person hasn't offended you. The Mormon then takes advantage of that situation to get their points in.
It's been my observation that Mormons don't give a damn if they offend anyone unless it makes them lose control over that person. The "I'm sorry if I may have done anything to offend you" is the first move in an attempt to take back control over that person.
Oh, and the not knowing what he may have done to offend you just shows he's using this as a tactic.
'Yes, you've offended me bishop, now get lost. See ya.'
All the info I've read here about the 'oh, they left because they were offended' threat makes me think it's just a way of making people afraid to say they were offended by the church in general.
Why not just say, 'Yes, I find you offensive, bye!', and be done with them?
It's like a game of 'double dog dare ya.' So, take the dare, and never look back. Who cares what they think, since they'll think the worst anyway, or just make something up to make you look bad no matter what reason you give for leaving. Why not say, 'yes bishop, you have offended me', and put the guilt trip back onto him for a change. Don't discuss why with him, say you don't want to say why, just agree with him that he offended you, and send him on his merry way.
Then he can sit and worry about what he did, sort of like the mind trips he used to place onto you.
Offended. My SP asked me the same question awhile ago. TBM leaders just can't accept seeing that you are OK without the church and so if it's not porn addition, running around wallowing in the 'sins' of the world, then clearly they or someone else must have offended you.
I'll repeat a great line from someone on this board that resonated with me. "Offended by someone? Well honestly I am offended by someone. I'm offended by JS and the things he did like marrying 14 year old girls as well as other men's wives."
Not having told your wife yet. Moose my friend, thou art on dangerous ground. Tread carefully as I know you will. I am recent exmo, from pioneer stock, and the whole bit and I believe from your past posts that we are both "throat slitters" with kids grown and growing. A very compiles stage in life to come out to family and friends as I can attest as well.
What I have found helpful in my conversations is to talk about my truth and acknowledging that I respect that they have a different truth. That people can look at the same facts about all sorts of things and reach different conclusions.
I've not been on the board a lot lately either. Good to see you here when I stopped by. Always enjoy your posts and comments.
Now that you mention it bishop, you may want to visit the anti-perspirant aisle... Pepe le Pew!
Or, "Bishop, I've been so busy SINNING, how could I possibly notice if you've offended me? Did you run over my mailbox? What do YOU need to repent about?"
Yes, I missed mister mooster, and BYUboner, and cludgie-kidnapped by the Relief Society ladies? Etc.
The offense card. How predictable. What is your strategery? Be gentle with Mrs. Moose, and make it clear this will enhance your marriage and allow more time together... as I'm sure you will.
Did you invent Moose Munch? Carmel, cashews... well done! =)
Best wishes with your path out of the real estate corporation...
Moose! You shaggy, smelly lunk! Glad you made a post. You and Mrs Moose (who is only a little shaggy and *not* smelly) will do fine establishing boundaries for the Bish to know his non-place in your lives now. Take care and keep in touch. Personal aside: I'm always keen on genomic posts should you get more data.
That post about mormon judo is spot on. I suggest turning this around on him. And, you know, I'd say go ahead and set up that meeting and take control of that too. But I have a chip on my shoulder about setting up meetings with mormons because they can't show up on time. I consider it the height of rudeness -- and a manipulative attempt to control the tone of the meeting -- by showing up late. I think they do it on purpose; keep you waiting and wondering and maybe sweating what the meeting will be like. Probably declining the meeting will be the least PITA.
I'd say I've got the warm fuzzies, if I weren't already as fuzzy as moose are wont to be...
:^)
Thanks all for your posted advice.
As for anyone's ability to offend me, may I just say that I usually (no, not always) take the high road and choose when to be offended, not matter how hard one tries to offend!
I am mostly successful! (No one's perfect)
I have not replied to the Bish yet but will do so later today. I really want to have that initial conversation with my wife this evening. Thanks again for so much good advice - I shall be gentle!
I will okay the Bish's visit. I am quite comfortable in my knowledge of the scriptures as well as the basis for my unbelief, so I can understand his perspective and effectively communicate mine. My thrust will be Article of Faith 11. He is to allow me my own (un)beliefs and should not concern himself any further with them.
My wife is free to do and believe as she chooses with my full support.
Bishop XYZ, imagine that you get the following text out of the blue from an acquaintance who is an Amway dealer:
"My dear friend; You and Mrs. XYZ have been on my mind. I am feeling that I may have offended you in some way. Would you allow me to come to your home on Thursday night at 7:00 to visit?"
Do you think it would be because they actually feel they offended you, or do you think it would be a cheap trick to get into your home in order to do their sales pitch?
In this respect, bishop, are you any different than an Amway dealer?
Guilt: He's feeling unwarranted guilt/responsibility for your welfare. The church has put too much weight on his shoulders and he is the victim of manipulation.
Insult to you: It's a bit of an insult to suggest that you are so fragile that you would give up your eternal salvation because he hurt your feelings.
Narcissism: He's got an over-inflated sense of his own influence and importance in your life.
Manipulation and playing on your being a nice guy: He hopes that you'll try to reassure him that it wasn't his fault, and he'll get to insert himself back into your life.
Prying: He's throwing out a random reason for leaving and hoping you'll either confirm it, or give a different reason. Then he can argue with your reason.
Personally, I think the best approach is just to say "Thanks for your concern, but how I came to my new religious beliefs isn't up for debate and I consider it a personal matter."
I really like what Baura said. You don't need to meet with a salesman to explain why you don't want their product. You don't owe them an opportunity to argue against your decision. YOU decide who you want to take counsel from.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2015 04:40PM by imaworkinonit.
Agree. Remember, you don't owe that guy *anything*. He desperately needs you, but thinks the exact opposite. You don't need to, and imo should not, provide any explanations, arguments or justifications. Forget 11th article of faith, etc. This just gives them implicit power over the meeting and is a rookie error BICs often make. Just inform him of your choice and send him off.
Good luck mooooose. Earlier today I was on familysearch.org and looked at Zina Huntington for the first time since I got a login. I click the link to her "husband" Horny Joe and found her among 31 "wives." It is pretty ridiculous that anyone could have 31 wives and it not be a harem.
Hope your wife takes it well.
It took an EQ tattling on me to a bish that I wasn't going to have a ppi with him to get me to confront the bish.
I told the Bishop Thursday wasn't convenient. He rescheduled for next Tuesday. I really want the weekend for discussion time. I'm sure my wife will need the processing time, too.
Speaking of Mrs. Moose, she's the creative type with a good dose of logic. I hope the logical side will kick in after the inevitable emotional response. As I said before, with her I'll be gentle.
The Bishop is another matter. Cold, hard fact will be his lot.
Good call changing the schedule time. Puts you in the power seat from the beginning. If he want to meet and you agree, then do so on your time not his.
Baura is dead-on about their training to put you on the defensive.
You have no obligation to "your" bishop as you no longer grant him any authority over you.
A good martial-arts reply, using his own feigned interest in your emotional well-being, would be to say this:
"Thank you for your concern, Bishop, but my absence is not about you. It is about maintaining a love of truth and a life of personal integrity in view of the mounting evidence that the church we have both dedicated our lives to has been misleading members for years. If you have any interest in truth, may I suggest you review the CES letter? If you would like to discuss the contents, I would be happy to meet with you."