I posted a week ago that I was sure that all of the Apostles were in on the joke...and now I'm not so sure. Another poster said that 1/3 of the apostles were TBM, 1/3 didn't care, and another 1/3 knew it was a sham. I wonder if this may be the case. I see evidence that some of the apostles still believe the cult is true.

For example:

Why the elaborate services in the SLC just for the prophet and apostles? I'm not sure how often these rituals take place (washing of the feet), BUT if they all know it was a sham why continue the charade behind closed doors? Simply for the fake power trip?

Why the split incomes for the leadership? From what I understand the apostles and 70 (and MPs) get a "modest" stipend for their services. Granted, the amount of this stipend sounds like it is significant - it still does not sound like millions of USD. $300K -and-up is a lot of money, but the real income is from the board memberships that the apostles preside on. The Morg owns a lot of large corporations and the apostles sit on the boards of these corporations, so their income is from doing secular business - not directly from the morg. ( Of course the morg feeds all of these corporations but that is another story...) So why not just divide up the tithing plunder among apostles and be done with it? Why the convoluted tithe-to-church-then-spend-on-corporations money washing?

It makes me wonder if there are GA's who feel justified collecting their stipend but only as long as it isn't too much. They can then do "business" as corporation board members and soak up the rest of the money through those means and not feel guilty about bilking the rank-and-file tithepayers as they make millions on the backs of the mormon sheep.

To sum up, the mormon money wash isn't for taxes as much as it is for guilt...? This process is acceptable to the apostles...?
I know it is easy to label the apostles as souless, or as con-men (so easy really) BUT is it possible that they still believe the cult in one form or another?

When I was on my mission in the 80's the new apostle Russell Nelson came to speak with us missionaries and he had a photographic brain when it came to the scriptures and how that related to Jesus Christ. I know there are ways of memorizing phone books and other mental tricks but he really seemed to know all of these verses forward and backwards. Would someone who knew the church was false spend that kind of energy memorizing the scriptures?

Perhaps Elder Nelson knows the truth now but back then I would have said he was TBM.

Which apostles do you think are in on the con and who is TBM?

Do you really think they all know it is a fraud?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2015 05:10AM by praydude.

They stopped appointing GAs to corporate boards about 40 years ago. As I understand it, privately held corporations don't even have to have boards of directors. That's a matter of the corporation bylaws.

Public corporations have boards that are elected by shareholders.

If they own private corporations outright, they don't have to appoint themselves to a board to have access to the profits. They already have control of the money.

My understanding is that they stopped serving on boards of public companies. That wouldn't mean they can't serve on the board of the LD$ Inc subsidiaries.

I have found that as recent as 2005 Gordon B Hinkly was the chairman of Deseret Management, the parent corporation for the (now gone) Beneficial Life Group. Still not sure what other boards the others sit on if any.

I think they are all (or almost all) in love with their power and the public adulation. They have to be good company men to make it to the upper ranks. Who wouldn't like to think that your opinions are God like. (Well personally, it is ridiculous to me but I can see the appeal.)

I think the very comfortable lifestyle and perks for their families are just an added bonus.

They know damn well that they have never met with Christ in person. They have not touched His wounds, spoke with him face to face or been given direction from Him to lead the church. They have no more verification of the church's truthfulness or Joseph Smith's visions than any other LDS member. But they call themselves apostles and special witnesses. They are perpetuating the scam by pretending to be apostles. They are nothing but conmen, taking money from the poor and needy while living a comfortable life and demanding unearned respect and adulation.

Tom Phillips had his calling and election made sure, which is a time when you are supposed to see Jesus. He didn't see Jesus, but he still continued to believe for a while afterwards.

Therefore, I find it feasible that the Apostles MIGHT still believe despite not having seen Jesus. If Tom Phillips did, why can't an Apostle?

And these Apostles would've had their calling and election made sure well before coming Apostles, so they would have already been promised to see Jesus, not seen him, and continued to believe. I wouldn't be surprised if the second anointing was used as a "test" on high-up mormons, to see if they will still continue to believe after being promised to see Jesus and not seeing him.

I'm with you that they probably still believe. But that is where it gets deceptive to the members. When an apostle says his experiences are too sacred to discuss but he knows that the hasn't really seen Jesus, he is conning the members.

I watched the documentary about Scientology and it was an eye opener. Hubbard started out saying he was going to make up a religion to avoid taxes. But in the end he spent hours at his e-meter machine, trying to get validation. In his last months of his life he believed his own bullshit that he knew he had started. Somewhere deep inside the minds of the apostles, they have got to know that it isn't what they thought when they were regular members. But they are probably deluded like Hubbard. My problem is that they claim to be special witnesses and apostles. They are not and they have got to know that.

You have to think about this LOGICALLY.

The Apostles were once normal TBMs just like we once were, and ended up ladder-climbing (whether intentionally, or by accident, or a bit of both).

- In most cases they first get called as a Bishop. Did they still believe when they got called as a Bishop? Probably.

- Then in most cases they get called as a Stake President. Did they still believe when they were Stake Presidents? Probably.

- After that they usually get called as Misson Presidents. This is where things start getting big, and you get a little taste of what it's like to be a GA/Apostle. Did they still believe when they were called as Mission Presidents? Probably. Remember, Tom Philips almost got called as a Mission President, and he still believed at that time.

- Next up on the ladder-climb is Area Seventies (3rd Quorum of the Seventy and onwards). Do they still believe? Well, we have proof that at least SOME of them do, since Hans Mattsson was an Area Seventy who left the church, and he believed the whole time.

- What about GAs? (1st and 2nd quorum of the seventy). This is where it gets a bit difficult. However, think of it this way, if the church let people in on the scam once they became GAs, how would that work? There have been HUNDREDS of people called as GAs over time, and most of them tend to be former Mission Presidents, who are usually true believers at the time. So if the church had let all the HUNDREDS of GAs in on the scam, how come not even ONE of them has gone public about it. If Hans Mattsson or Tom Phillips became a GA and then got told it was a scam, they wouldn't have gone along with it, and I'm sure a lot of the current GAs wouldn't have either.

- Similar logic can be applied to the Apostles. If these people had spent their ENTIRE lives serving the church as a TBM, and then they get called as an Apostle, and the church goes "By the way, the church isn't true, but you need to pretend it is", don't you think at least ONE of them would've gone public about it, despite the money and adoration from TBMs they'd receive? Don't you think at the very least they'd feel a bit traumatised. Whilst I appreciate MOST of them might just go along with it anyway, you have to realise there have been dozens of Apostles over time, why has not even ONE of them come clean about it? Not even ONE.

When I think this through logically in my head, I'm pretty convinced that SOME of them must believe. Maybe there are ones who have lost their testimony or know it's a scam, but I think they must keep it secret, just like a lot of every day TBMs do when they're having doubts.

You have some great points and I love the flow of your argument. I would agree that some of them must see that it is a sham...is it the "quiet" ones? Are there apostles who never give talks?

Yes, GA's have already been thoroughly filtered for obedience, belief and reliance on groupthink. I'm of the opinion that the big majority of them aren't faking it. And I totally agree with improbability of a massive conspiracy of silence.

Smirkorama has a link to a video of a dinner party where Gordon hinckley looks nervous as the top 12 are announced by their corporate callings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ1uIgbI2QY

The video clips were taken from the LD$ Inc / Beneficial Financial produced video documentation of the Beneficial Financial 100 Anniversary Commemmoration celebration, that was held just a few years before Beneficial Financial went broke.

I wish I could find the DVD again. Hinckley speaks at the party. He makes a joke about how much money the company had, BEFORE they threw the blow out party that is ...... which would also be right before they managed to go broke a just a few years later, so I guess Hinckley was prophetic in making his joke about how much money LDS Inc Benny Financial really would not have afterwards.

That Hinckley! He was such a scamp! The life of the party.

I'm genuinely laughing out loud because I'm hearing this in Tom Monson's voice.

I would guess they have very heavy shelves if they still believe.

Only each one of them individually know that answer.

TSCC's focus isn't on Kindness or Honesty, it's on the Corp.

when I conflict of values or priorities happens, 'guess what happens'....



people like myself are VERY VOCAL in pointing out the disconnects between claims (Honesty #1, "Family Values" #2) and on-the-ground Mormonism.

to each member, regardless of status, rank, or placement... even family ... it's what's On the Ground day to day.

Mormons can (say they) believe Anything they like, but they Refuse to see what's going on around them, if not today, just a few days ago:

*Boring, Pointless meetings where people drone on 99% predictably about the same-o same-o

*NO Revelations, either from SL or where they are; No One now says 'Thus Saith the Lord'.

*Special Privileges for MoRoyalty


*Hiding info (financial & other) from most members


need more? I don't!

I agree with GNPE.

To the extent they don't address the conflicts, inconsistencies, medlings, and outright blunders of the church, they are all in on it......to the hilt.

then uchdorf gets up and says (para) 'mistakes have been made', but doesn't go any further regarding:


=Correction to lives adversely affected

=steps to ensure that they aren't repeated.


this is a Large reason why TSCC feigns autonomy for local leaders; CenCom won't have to take responsibility for Anything!

The claim that the Lamanites are the ancestors of American Indians was watered down twice because the Q15 knew the original claim was indefensible.

That wasn't a casual editorial change. They know that claim is false.

I believe what makes it possible for these men to actually believe they are apostles is the redefining of concepts such as revelation.

Most members believe that the prophet, Thomas Monson, receives revelation from Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and implements actions for those communications. Whether by impression or direct visitation, God talks to the prophet and the prophet tells the WORLD, not just the church, what God's instructions are for them.

Now the reality is when these men move from being a Bishop to a Stake President and perhaps an Area Authority or Mission President they most likely believed revelation works as described in the above paragraph, but if they are selected to become one of the BIG 15 then they learn the truth...

And the truth is that Thomas Monson cannot and WOULD NOT ever declare he had a revelation and take any action unilaterally. The truth is that it takes 15 affirmative votes to REVEAL anything from the Mormon God.

Thus as the definition of revelation changes for these "apostles" so does their belief system. Now they may choose not to believe, but the narrative has been diluted enough for them to believe the Mormon Church is true without ever seeing Jesus Christ or actually hearing his voice.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2015 11:37AM by Doubting Thomas.

Hmmm: TITHING is about the only thing that hasn't been diluted....

Yes, they are in on the scam. However, I do think they have convinced themselves that it's a good scam that makes people lives better. And it does for some. They overlook the millions of people who are damaged by it. They want to feel good about what they are doing, and they love their positions. They are treated like royalty. The red carpet is rolled out for them everywhere they go. They never have to worry about their futures. I do believe they have convinced themselves that they have some supernatural knowledge that others don't have.

I think this it. They're imbued in evil up to their eyeballs, but they don't recognize it.

On the other thread, about parenting advice, so much is double-speak: agency, which implies freedom of choice, actually means capitulating to external control--the opposite of agency. This is not considered damaging or wrong. In the thread was a teenager in Logan who jumped from a moving car and was killed because she refused to submit to her father's overt exercise of control over her. In today's America, a child can't hop on a box car and vote with their feet--but reality is avoided for head-in-the-sandism. That's the Mormon way, look at the Hoffman affair. Wrong is right. Pretend it didn't happen. When that's your philosophy you can justify anything. Where's contrition when loyalty to the company is everything. If the church were subject to the same controls as public companies, audits would certainly show self-dealing, even criminality, all justified by loyalty to the corporation.

How about "milk before meat?" That's simply an excuse for lying, as is, "Lying for the Lord."

These are examples of low morality. People who believe these beliefs are morally good or defensible can easily "believe" and still lie. Lying is part of what you believe to be good.

Mormons have the idea that not even all Mormons will make the grade for God. Of course this creates extreme arrogance. The second annointing stands for the proposition that one man's actions and decisions on Earth bind God. How can a belief get more autocratic than that? Believing this stuff is justification for everything the Q15 do.

This has been discussed ad naseum here. Review this:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,854083,854083#msg-854083

It's worth a gander.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2015 10:56AM by Jesux of Nazdaq.

ask them a specific question, they'll 'answer' with a riddle or dodge a real answer.


I GUARRRR AN TEEE it!

>>A Hobson's choice is a free choice in which only one option is offered. As a person may refuse to take that option, the choice is therefore between taking the option or not. In other words, one may "take it or leave it." The phrase is said to originate with Thomas Hobson (1544–1631), a livery stable owner in Cambridge, England. To rotate the use of his horses, he offered customers the choice of either taking the horse in the stall nearest the door or taking none at all.

What is the difference between a cult and a religion?
In a cult, there is a person at the top who knows it is a scam.
In a religion, that person is dead.

To a great degree they all believe. They all misleed to some degree, but believe it on some level. Lying is for the Lord, and for your best good. They believe that if you knew the whole truth, you might loose your belief, and they truly believe that would not be in your best interest.
Even the ones who know all the problems, and know they are not being truthful, have some kind of overall belief, even if it is in God and Christianity. (Tom Monson)

some have dementia and couldn't care less as long as those $$ keep rolling in. Of course that's what they cared about before the dementia too.

Considering the 15 continue to suppress damaging historical documents locked tight in church vaults; I would say yes, they definitely know the whole thing's a sham.

Yes, they most likely are. Maybe the Apostles in the old days were genuine believers, but I think at least since the Hinckley era (if not before), they are conscious frauds.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2015 10:43PM by iamanevermormon.

Nobody who has ever served as church president has been unaware that it is a scam.

There are no church apostles alive today who don't know that it is a scam. As apostles, Hinckley & Monson certainly knew the details - they were the ones who used ETB's autopen.

None of the apostles have come forward because they know that spilling the beans would probably cost them their lives, and the lives of their family.

are they getting paid? are they talking about what they are getting paid? are they actually speaking to Jesus as one of His special witnesses , as are supposed to do ?