From this thread:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1625756,1625756#msg-1625756

I took a deep breath and launched.

The discussion with Mrs. Moose about my unbelief turned out to be calm. No fuss. No muss.

But Mrs. Moose is as firm as ever and might be digging in for our discussion with the Bishop on Tuesday. I told her I do not want to convince her the church is false and will support her in her beliefs. But if she's ever in the mood to discuss proveable church history, I'll be available!

So, it went as well as could be expected with her. Her parents and mine will be another matter...and then there are my kids.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2015 05:14PM by moose.

That's good your wife took it well. Make sure you don't ever come across as trying to convince her to change her beliefs. She probably knows you have some heavy stuff. Its scary for Mormons when confronted with the truth because they feel they need to defend the church. Make sure she understands that she can discuss this new info with her without her feeling like she needs to defend the church or accept anything you tell her. Tell her you don't expect her to go one way or the other just for her to learn the facts and she can do what she wants with them. No need for arguments or trying to convince one or the other their beliefs are wrong.

I think if you relieve that pressure on her she might be more open discuss the things you learned.

I think that you've chosen a sensible course of action. I wish you continued good luck.

When I told my wife why I couldn't possibly buy some, no-most, no-nearly all, of the history, truth or doctrines, she took it well.

And then she didn't.

Good luck Moose, but watch your back. It may well not be over at home.

Moose, good to hear you are relatively unscathed. As the poster "you don't know me" suggested things may not be over at home. I expect they are not and you will need to provide space for Mrs. Moose to process this for awhile.

I disagree with "Ex-CultMember's" suggestion to ask DW to study with you. She must choose on her own to ask herself 'the question'. It is a fools errand to try to persuade a others, including those you love and who love you, out of the TSCC. They must persuade themselves.

When my shelf went from creaking to 'dust' in a blink of an eye I was able say to myself that I'd been wrong for over 50 years and was really and truly in a bonefide cult. I knew from my training as a social scientist the full measure of what that meant. As I said to my therapist later that week, "I am in a damn cult. My family is in a damn cult. Shit. Now what the hell do with this. Double-shit."

I felt like I had just taken a blindfold off and found myself standing in the middle of a minefield with my family relationships all on the line. And I had teenager in psychological distress from TSCC and I was starting to worry her safety was at risk. There were no good choices on how to proceed and I knew, especially from reading others stories here and other places, that the risk of blowing up my marriage or relationships with some of my kids was a clear and present danger.

Fast forward a year. Half of us out and DW and other half in. We all seem to be doing great and are closer than ever. But it has taken a lot of very cautious and respectful steps to get it here. And I take nothing forgranted and know my story is still being written. In several months I will be standing outside the temple as one of my adult children get married. Forced to be a veritable 'prop' in a public shaming ceremony as a warning to the TBM's there to stay in line.

Moose my friend, I have sensed from your past posts that we may be contemporaries - pre-1990 temple 'Throat Slitters' you also may be. All I can say is be cautious. Don't take anything forgranted. Be patient. Show through your actions that you are still a good guy, in fact a better guy, a better husband, all without TSCC.

Safe journey.

mannaz, I think you missed the point of my post.

You said, "It is a fools errand to try to persuade a others, including those you love and who love you, out of the TSCC. They must persuade themselves."

The whole point of my post was to tell Moose to assure his wife they he will NOT try to "persuade" her out of the church. I never said anything about trying to persuade her out the church but that she is safe to talk to him about his issues WITHOUT him trying to convince her one way or the other.

Hello "Ex-CultMember" (btw, great score on your username). Please excuse if I sounded dismissive. So another long post for me. Self-serving in part as it is 'therapeutic' given my own circumstances. More importantly, there may be something that Moose or others might Glenn from it.

My experience has been that anything that even hints of persuasion, like trying to study something out together, will be rejected and could lead to unproductive conflict - especially at the outset. Cognitive dissonance is so very real and I never fully appreciated how powerful it could be until I saw in full effect in my DW who is one of the most intelligent, open minded, thoughtful, and well read people I know and for whom I have great respect and love. We have always been able to listen to each other and have stood side-by-side in all things. So when I tried to do what you suggested I realized, having a clinical level understanding of cognitive dissonance, that if I could not even gently try to get her to start walking the same ground as I had that it was not rational to expect that I could do such things with any other family member or other person. My conclusion from my experience, which is consistent with the few other situations I've seen first hand, is that a person needs to develop their own reason to ask themselves what I call 'the question'. Which is "what is the truth of the whole matter of TSCC not "is IT true".

But this is just my own individual experience in my own unique circumstances. It may very well be idiosyncratic to my situation and very different from what might be possible for others. But alas, it is all I have.

In my case we had just had a family tragedy early last year and it was just too much for DW to be willing to dig into such a difficult topic with me. But I was in a bishopric seeing the sausage made and found myself with conflicts between my personnel ethics and what I was being being expected, he'll pressured, to do. Plus I had a teen who was in psychological distress to the point I were I was worried that she might harm herself. So I was compelled to ask myself 'the question' - which initially was "what is the stone cold doctrine of TSCC" and quickly turned into the former. And I had to ultimately choose what my teens needed knowing full well that I was putting my marriage at risk and also my relationships with my adult children.

The exception would be if ones 'dear other' has already begun to look at things and is quite disturbed by say the "Polygamy in Nauvoo" essay. Then that could possibly be discussed and naturally lead to other topics. One challenge I've found that the blanket of 'anti-Mormon' sources gets tossed over everything. The church essays provide enough 'wiggle room' for mental gymnastics to give various issues 'a pass'. All explicitly non-promoted church sources become out of bounds. Even FAIR becomes labeled as not a fully legitimate source.

My own choice has been to work hard at being the best and most considerate husband and father I can be with a focus on my families needs and living within each day. Honestly I think without TSCC I am better at this. I focus efforts on what I can to to keep the family solid as well as respectful of each other. Keeping the family solid is achievable I think. Any changes in beliefs I see as gravy (well, I prefer chocolate).

Right now my teens and myself are mentally healthier and happier. And likewise the family has remained solid. But, I take nothing forgranted and each day is well, each day.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2015 10:41AM by mannaz.

mannaz - Thank you for your considerate and thoughtful post. I think we all come from similar, but at the same time, very different experiences too. It certainly affects the way we view Mormonism and all its craziness. I guess that's why its good to a discussion board like this so people can see a wide range of experiences. I thumbs up your response!

Humans pass more information through unspoken, unconscious social cues and body gestures than you realize –– and others consciously pick up on it far more than you realize.

Add to this fact that coincidences do exist and the human brain is programmed to look for meaning and evidence of agenticity in everything, and a bishop who seemingly calls you up 'who just happens to have you on the mind' is not indicative of a loving Heavenly Father sending his anointed your way to check up on you.

If it is, it is so underwhelming of an effort, I would hardly take it as evidence of great love. It is like if a child was sick in bed at death's door, and a concerned mother gently rasped on the door so quietly the child doubts whether the sound is a person or just a coincidence and what the coincidence could mean. She does't even say anything, because that was her one outreach to her child. If her child doesn't have enough faith in her and know her well enough to recognize her minimalistic rasping at the door, then she will not help –– chalk it up to respecting free agency or something.

It counts as negligence and abusive parenting in the extreme. I don't know why Mormon God gets a pass when he does the exact same thing. Isn't spiritual death supposed to be far more serious than physical death?

Oh, and it's also such a cheap magic trick. A friend of mine got divorced. When I heard of it, I sent him a text saying I was mindful of him and wondering how he was doing.

Several days later, he texted me back saying how grateful he was that I was so in tune with the Spirit to know when he needed a pick-me-up.

I laughed. I can't tell him about my apostasy. I'm still incognito. The experience basically destroyed for me all those little 'tender mercies' when the right person seemed to call me at right time and express concern 'for reasons they knew not.' They were always scarce moments anyway.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2015 12:03PM by Cold-Dodger.

Thanks for the wonderful posts.

mannaz, you may be right about being contemporaries. I "took out" (weird phrase, right?) my endowments February 2, 1974 in the Salt Lake Temple, prior to my mission to the Australia East Mission, Spanish speaking. My new name is the same as my own middle name, so it has been rather easy to remember! *snort* So, yes, pre-90's throat slitting and disembowelment. Awesome, eh? I thought it all kind of weird but it didn't cause me to question at the time. Yeah, sometimes I think I slept through childhood and adolescence.

Anyway, for those giving counsel, I have assured my wife I'll support her in her beliefs, following Article of Faith 11, and hope she'll do the same. Upon that premise, we sally forth...

After our visit from the Bish, I'll return and report.

Oh, I have sent Eric K an e-mail to see how I can change my screen name. Now that I'm no longer "hidden/hiding" (so to speak) I can use my real name.

The moose is loosed!

I figured out how to change my screen name.

Hi Bruce. Curious. You most likely are related to my DIL. (She too is a Holt.) Her family is active TBM. (She, herself, is not active but typically very defensive of the Mor(m)on beliefs.) Her family roots are in So. UT.

Now that I know your name I will try to mention it casually. Have to be careful not to offend her and she seems rather sensitive when I ask her about her relates, (even if I am just trying to engage in conversation.)

As far as I know, all Southern Utah Holt's are related, coming from James Holt. There are a few who crossed into Nevada, as well. For example, there's a furniture store in Caliente owned and run by a Holt family. I used to see them in Salt Lake City when they visited the Serta mattress factory, of which I was the IT Manager for a while.

Anyway, I'm sure I'm related to your DIL.

Hello Bruce! Good to meet you. I disemboweled myself in 1987. But it was for sealing to my DW as we were married to each other first for a time. I'm a non-RM exmo heretic. Or is it apostate? I think I may qualify for both.

Interesting aside re being from our era. I once asked a bishop friend of mine about changing doctrines like temple endowments. He looked perplexed. Turned out he was post-1990 endowed and was completely unawares that such a change occurred. I offered to show him with his permission and it was quite an eye opener.

I've had some luck recently talking to a bishop friend about problems he faces trying to make a congregation run and how various precorrelation practices really helped local congregations build community. Like what the relief society used to do when they had their own budget, etc.

I'll be speaking with my Bishop tonight. We'll see what direction he wants to take. He's related to, and has the same first and last name as, an Emeritus 70. They look very similar! Both descend from the polygamous Mexican Colonies. His great Aunt was one of my instructors in the LTM (the LTM was prior to the MTC).

Well hello Bruce!!

It's it nice to be free to be who we really are? :)

ENJOY!!!

I see you included your middle initial, just in case HQ calls you to be apostle. <thumbs up>

:^)

I've been caught, dead to rights!

What are you a special witness of now as a pre-apostle?

I prefer to be a run-of-the-mill witness that it's all a lie.

Hi Bruce - we are related, too - my dear little Japanese Chin foster dog is really named Bruce. I enjoy your posts very much especially lately when you wrote that you are "out." I tease little Bruce the dog by shouting "Bruce is on the loose!" when we go outside.

So are you! See - we are related, too! <<<HUGS>>> "Bruce is on the loose! Bruce is on the loose!"

I'd like to know how we're related!

My e-mail address is visible on my profile (the only way I know how to find that is to click my name as a thread creator on the main forum page. If anyone knows of another way, I'd like to know.)

Of course one of the mods could put us in touch.

Or I could just post right here that my e-mail address is mvdbman@gmail.com

Yeah, that last way....

So simple.

;^)

<<<HUGS>>> right back atcha!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2015 02:35PM by Bruce A Holt.

No advice, just good luck!

Great news. I'm rooting for you, Bruce the Moose!