I'm pretty discouraged.

She's a very independent, smart, go-getter type. She has been raised by TBM mom and very un-TBM me.

I made sure she never felt pressured into belief or conformity. She has never "born her testimony", doesn't pay attention in church usually, and is very outspoken for LGBT rights. Her older brother did not go on a mission.

She wants to turn in "her papers" in a couple of months. It's really a shock, and in many ways I feel like I've failed her. She knows I don't believe but doesn't know the specifics of why (since DW and I have an uneasy truce with this).

At this point I'm not sure what to do. Her mind seems set, and I don't want to be a jerk or unsupportive, but I want her to truly know what she is representing before she goes. I can't live with myself if I don't lay it all out for her and let her judge for herself, but it will be seen as sabotage by DW, possibly even by her.

Did you start by asking her WHY she wants to go on a mission?

I'm not sure what to do, either. Especially given the situation with your wife. Tough situation :(

I would say,

"You are an adult now, and as your father I would like to share all that I have not shared in the past because I didn't want to influence you unduly, or put you in the middle, and felt it was important for you to make your own discoveries. It would mean a lot to me for you to know the real me, what's in my heart, mind, and soul. How about a long dinner where we talk freely about everything including my history with the Mormon church and my philosophies on life? IT would mean a lot to me for you to know the "WHY" of everything, to really know who your father is."

And then Hand her "Heaven Up Here" by John Williams.

She should know that missions are not roses and pixie dust.

Yes, I like this approach given where you are now.

sounds like a really good way to let her know you are not the sinner you have been painted to be in church, that you left for real reasons, etc. Also a great time to confirm to her that you love her no matter what she chooses.

Does she have a plan for paying for this mission that doesn't involve you? Because I sure wouldn't want to shell out the money so that she can go sell the church to someone else.

Once she puts in her papers, you might think about saying something to her along the lines of, "On your mission, you may be confronted with certain facts about the church that seem false at first, but might not be." Then point in in the direction of the CES letter if she wants to know more. But don't push it.

Mainly I would have a conversation with her about safety issues. Make sure that she knows if she is sick, hurt, hungry, afraid, or wants to come home, she can call you. She won't always make choices that you are in agreement with, but you are still her concerned dad.

I agree, don't pay for anything mission related. She should be willing to back up her commitment by working to earn it.

generationofvipers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> and in many ways I
> feel like I've failed her. She knows I don't
> believe but doesn't know the specifics of why
> (since DW and I have an uneasy truce with this).
>

I'd be upset too if I were in your shoes, it is a shot to the gut for sure.

I don't want to beat up on you, but for others who may be reading. There was really no uneasy truce between you and your wife. She got everything she wanted in regards to discussing religion with your daughter and you got nothing. Your so called uneasy truce was capitulation to your partners wishes to maintain peace. It was less like a truce, and more like a surrender.


It is my opinion that by NOT discussing exactly why the church is bogus with our children we do them a huge disservice. We leave them vulnerable to a very manipulative, powerful, brainwashing experience in an organisation that takes no prisoners.

Who knows, my kids may choose to go on missions. But before they go, they will have heard me tell them many times the church is a fraud, and exactly why I know it is a fraud.
They will have watched the documentaries on DNA evidence and the Book of Abraham.
They will have seen the temple video.
They will have read the CES letter.
They will have received from me many internet Memes that poke fun at the church.
Etc, etc....

This is war for their future, and sitting silently on the sidelines while they get some of the best fucking brainwashing in the world isn't likely to have the desired outcome.

To maintain the marriage may require some skill in how ideas are presented and discussed with children, but as they get older then the information can be more direct and specific, but we must start young if possible.

It does seem unfair that she's had an opportunity to familiarize herself with the LDS version of things from her mother, but not hear your side of the story--especially if you are being asked to put up money for this effort.

Perhaps have her read the essays on lds.org and tell her that you would be happy to confound more on them. After she reads them, ask her what her thoughts on them are, what stood out to her. You can be very tactful how you ask her to read these. I fell you should be open and honest with her and tell her that you dont like the idea of her going on a mission. Its going to be her choice though.

Sounds like she has made up her mind about what she wants to do. This is not about some failure of yours. This is about a young woman making her own decisions. And that is what we do as parents, give them as much support and help so they can leave the nest and fly.
I'd suggest you make sure she knows a lot more about what will be required of her so she is making an informed decision.
Get into the nitty-gritty day to day life of a missionary and what the church requires of her.And how difficult it is to change her mind down stream!

My view is that the best thing you can do is to make sure she is informed and do it in a helpful understanding way, and then be supportive of any decision she makes.

I am for young people making their own decisions, especially if they are willing to be well informed and prepared.

I agree with SusieQ#1. When I was preparing to go if my dad (never supportive of TSCC) would have initiated discussions, etc. I would have digged in my heels. Instead, he let the issue go, I did what I wanted to do and ironically discovered all of the historical issues while on my mission.

I think the most important lesson she'll take away from this approach is that Dad's love and support are unconditional. Good luck.

My 2 cents

I like blueorchid's approach. You could focus the talk on the inequality of women. Particularly emphasizing how you think of her and don't want her stuck where she does all the work and has all of the responsibility and blame, but none of the authority and power.

Tell her about the temple ceremony and it's confirmation that the role of women is as an eternal brood-sow for eternity.

'Queens and Priestesses unto your husband vs. Kings and Priests unto the Most High God' - Even if her husband was 'the Most High God' she would still *Never* be an *Equal*

Explain that you believe that she is equal - that she deserves equal power and reward for equal work - and according to the Morg's own statements this can never be true.

I'm writing this reply primarily as a data-point for others who may also be in "an uneasy truce" since I doubt you're going to be able to dissuade your daughter. It sounds like she's made up her mind. I agree with scotslander. I negotiated-capitulated-agreed-surrendered early on, and the result is:

oldest (daughter) isn't falling for it and stopped going to church

middle (son) went on mission, returns this September

youngest (son) leaving on mission this September

It's possible there will be a temple wedding or two in the future I won't be a part of.

I'm happy about my daughter finding her way out. Regarding my sons, I tell myself that I myself went on a mission and married in the temple and still eventually found my way out, so maybe they will too. However, my sons both have mild autism, and don't exhibit much evidence of independent (non-hive) thought, so I think they're probably both in it for the long haul.

Most kids like to create a plan for their lives. How many plans for life can you remember making?

For a TBM young female who has accepted the plan while in high school, starting college and getting married is that plan. So if marriage isn't in the offing, a mission pops up as a now viable alternative, so the plan changes...

It's the TBM perspective that has her chained to this path. And now, when friends and acquaintances are talking about their marriage plans, she can chat back about her mission plans, and how she knows it's the right thing to do. And she can't be criticized, since "everyone" is going it.

Escaping this path is pretty much impossible if she wants to stay TBM.

Pay for her to go abroad for the summer.

A female perspective:

Females are taught overtly and covertly in Mormonism to be afraid of the world-from toddler age. Missions "in the real world" ironically are a delay to actually participate in the real world. It is another protective bubble (they are completely vulnerable, but taught they are protected). Missions delay school, marriage, work, responsibility...

Another factor is peer pressure... Does she think she will find a better husband...? A friend has been writing from a mission, or encouraging her to go?

Boredom? She wants adventure/change of scenery...? She can join a humanitarian project now, and be back in time for fall semester!

She knows this will please her mother. She wants to reward her mother for surviving Mormon widow-hood (husband is a non-believer) Is she resentful toward you, or about you not believing...?

I would do what you can to inform her that the church covers up rape, assault, robbery, life threatening illness... of sister missionaries, then they send more to the same area six months later. Fight fire with fire. Get out all the evidence that Joseph Smith was a con man/predator. Show her why the BoM is bogus-what she has to sell. At least you will know you tried everything possible to protect her, and she will know. Find out what she is afraid of/why she REALLY wants to escape her current world. Good luck.

All of that was very good.

This young women needs to be informed that missions cost REAL money, and that so contrary to idiotic MORmON assertions there is NO Jesus dividend / money blessing reimbursement as compensation for completing a mission.

Missions cost real money, money that she probably thinks she will not have to come up with because she happens to be working in league with the heavy weight financial gorilla and black hole of LD$ Inc which automatically gets everything they want on this particular money sucking cause. LD$ Inc has been cashing in on this factor in a big way in recent times as missionary age requirements were lowered and young women see a mission as an extension of cost free living at their parent's expense.

She needs to know that her mission will consume precious financial resources that may not automatically be available to her again later on. Making her pay a certain percentage before hand will serve as a big dose of reality. When the REAL expense of a mission starts to register with a missionary, then enthusiasm for a mission finally gets some anchoring in reality, and the prospective missionary's enthusiasm for serving a mission is not going quite as sky high as they thought it was.

Could you get her to perhaps read the missionary blog pages where they describe the horrors of a mission?

I'd say I'd pay for college or job training, but someone else needs to pay if a mission is what she wants.

Perhaps some consolation here: A full time mission did more to facilitate my mental exit from the MORmON cult than any other thing. I know I am not the only one found in such a circumstance.

Nothing forces a person to SMELL the stench of the MORmON church like having to SELL the MORmON church. (Being employed by THE church might come close) After that it is just a matter of facing reality about where the stench is really coming from.

Holland's recent scathing tirade and MORmON temple style threats directed at some missionaries seems to acknowledge this condition that I am speaking about to a certain extent.

I know it won't happen, but if she could test run some garments on a nice hot day...

Thank you all for the suggestions and motivation. I have to admit I am feeling a little fatalistic, but I'm not sure why.

When she told me she wanted to go, I asked her exactly why, and she told me some personal reasons, none of which were very strong in my opinion.

But something tells me that I will absolutely lose her trust if I take the blazing six-guns approach. She already knows how I feel (though not why) and it took a lot of trust for her to confide in me as much as she did. I can't betray that trust.

It seems to me that blueorchid had a great insight into the mind of my daughter, and I am not sure why I haven't said what she said before. It is a perfect way to open the discussion, and my girl can always say "I'm not ready to hear bad things about the church" if that's what she wants.

If I started with a paraphrase of what blueorchid wrote:

"You are an adult now, and as your father I would like to share all that I have not shared in the past because I didn't want to influence you unduly, or put you in the middle, and felt it was important for you to make your own discoveries. It would mean a lot to me for you to know the real me, what's in my heart, mind, and soul. How about a long dinner where we talk freely about everything including my history with the Mormon church and my philosophies on life? It would mean a lot to me for you to know the "WHY" of everything, to really know who your father is."

I think it would be very hard for her AND for DW to object (I really can talk to her about everything, and she is such a non-TBM girl that I am still rocked back on my heels).

My other thought is to simply ask her, "If you were about to marry someone who had lied to you and was still lying to you about who they are and where they are from, but you were really in love and happy, would you want me to tell you or keep my mouth shut?"

Once I get to the actual discussion, I can refer her to the CES letter and the essays and all the other resources, but somehow I think letting her know my heart and the pain the church has caused me will be better.

Again, thank you all for the great suggestions.

You could use the CES letter as a way to raise questions about mormonism she may hear on her mission. As a convert, I knew nothing about the temple ceremonies. I find them creepy. How would she respond to such a comment? If she's going to sell the product, she better know about it and the objections many have.

At a minimum you should be able to show her the church essays since they ARE FROM THE CHURCH and ON THEIR OWN WEBSITE.

After that, you could hand her the CES Letter and say, "as an adult and as your father I feel you are MATURE enough to make your own decisions and to be WELL INFORMED as to ALL aspects of the church, ESPECIALLY since you are going to be a representative of the church you are trying to convince OTHER people to join."

I agree... start by asking her why she wants to go.
It might be something as benign as one of her friends is going. Teenagers like to do what their friends are doing.

Tell her the truth about why you don't believe. If she is old enough to go, she is old enough to hear differing view points. She is certainly going to hear differing view points on the mission so she better be prepared for that.

I read Heaven Up Here. I thought it was a great book, well written and told the truth in a non-biased way. I would also give it to your daughter to read. I 'd also share what your personal research about the church found.

Would your daughter be interested in serving a mission with the Peace Corp? She would get paid some $, get experience in the humanitarian field, and make a legitimate contribution to society. She may also learn a new language. She can choose to serve for six months or one year. She has choices with the Peace Corp. It would open doors for her professionally and look good on her resume. All good stuff.

I have thought about the peace corps for her since she has already gone on a few humanitarian trips. I think she sees a mission as a service opportunity to help people. It does help people, just not the ones she thinks it does. I have heard that the book Heaven Up Here actually motivates people to want to go on a mission more. Is that not true?

I haven't read the book but will check it out. Reflecting back on my mission, there was a definite difference in outcomes in the number of baptisms, etc. between missionaries who BELIEVED and those who did not, but were there because they were pressured to fulfill their parent's wishes. The experience is akin to being in a pressure cooker for all missionaries. The missionary could get burned out very easily even if they truly BELIEVED and served on their own choice. I am convinced a mission is not for everyone. Can she serve a mission at home, like a stake mission, etc?

Unless they've DRASTICALLY changed things, she is going to do VERY LITTLE in terms of actual service. Its going to be all about converting and reactivating.

On my mission we were instructed to do 4 hours of service each week BUT NO MORE. I'm sorry, but you can't get a whole lot of effective service done in 4 hours. Half the time was mishies goofing off and/or not really knowing what they were doing. Half the weeks we didnt even do service. She can do just as much service or more outside of her mission.


If she REALLY wants to do service she should do Peacorp or something.

She's only going to be a saleswoman on her mission.

I concur with Ex Cult Member 1,000%.