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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: August 29, 2021 09:31AM

I did the analysis several years ago.

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,968331,968331#msg-968331

This probably has been put up before but I thought I'd do this to provide basic common sense information:

The "plates" were said to be a stack of gold metal sheets "as thick as common tin" six by eight inches in size and six inches high. Gold is a very dense metal -- density 19.3 times more than water which weighs sixty four pounds per cubic foot. This alone would be enough for the story not to pass the smell test but if you need more proof, here's the analysis:

Density of Gold: 19.3 g/cm^3

Volume of Plates: 6" x 8" x 6" = 288 in^3, 4719.474432 cm^3

Plate Thickness, "thick as common tin," 1/64" = 0.015625" = 0.396875 mm, approx 0.4 mm

Number of Plates: stack 6" high, 152.4 mm / 0.4 mm = 381 plates

Volume of Plate: 6" x 8" x 1/64" = 0.75 in^3 = 12.290298 cm^3

Mass of Gold Plate: 12.290298 cm^3 x 19.3 g/cm^3 = 237.2027514 g = 0.522 lbs

Total Mass Of Gold Plates: 381 x 237.2027514 g = 90.374 Kg = approx. 200 lbs

Running or casually carrying a small dense stack of gold sheets weighing two hundred pounds would be absolutely impossible.


But wait, now say the Mormons. The plates weren't really made of gold as they were previously said to be to be but were actually the copper/silver/gold alloy called by the ancient Greeks orichalcon and called in the New World tumbaga. Estimates vary but a composition consisting of eighty per cent. copper, fifteen per cent. silver and fiver per cent. gold has been proposed. Using this metal we now have the following estimate:

Copper 8.96 g/cm^3 80%
Silver 10.49 g/cm^3 15%
Gold 19.3 g/cm^3 5%
===============================
Tumbaga 9.7065 g/cm^3


Total Mass Of Tumbaga Plates: 381 x 119.29578g = 45.452 Kg = approx. 100 lbs

Joseph Smith would have to be unusually strong to carry and run with a small dense object weighing a hundred or two hundred pounds or more. To paraphrase Terryl Givens, that's the "price you pay" to believe in a made up fantasy religion like Mormonism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2021 09:31AM by anybody.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: August 29, 2021 10:10AM

REI recommends that the max load a backpacker can carry with a heavy duty backpack (shoulder straps, aluminum frame, waist strap to distribute weight) is about 20% of their body weight. That’s 30 pounds for a 150 pound person.

You can carry more than that for a short time or distance. You can probably pick up a fifty pound potato or flour bag and carry it a short distance. Unless you are in very good shape, two fifty pound bags is probably not possible.

Edit to add: easier to grip items, like two fifty pound suitcases, could be lifted by a fair number of people. Carrying them any distance would be challenging.


On top of which, why on earth did JS need actual plates at all, if he “read” the text on a rock in a hat? I think he just liked spreading the BS story that he had this big block of gold, to impress the rubes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2021 10:14AM by Brother Of Jerry.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: August 29, 2021 10:21AM

Supposedly, he found a deposit of pure, white sand in a creek bed.

http://www.truthandgrace.com/StatementIngersoll1.htm


Palmyra, Wayne Co. N. Y. Dec. 2d, 1833.


I, Peter Ingersoll, first became acquainted with the family of Joseph Smith, Sen. in the year of our Lord, 1822. -- I lived in the neighborhood of said family, until about 1830; during which time the following facts came under my observation.

The general employment of the family, was digging for money. I had frequent invitations to join the company, but always declined being one of their number. They used various arguments to induce me to accept of their invitations. I was once ploughing near the house of Joseph Smith, Sen. about noon, he requested me to walk with him a short distance from his house, for the purpose of seeing whether a mineral rod would work in my hand, saying at the same time he was confident it would. As my oxen were eating, and being myself at leisure, I accepted the invitation. -- When we arrived near the place at which he thought there was money, he cut a small witch hazle bush and gave me direction how to hold it. He then went off some rods, and told me to say to the rod, "work to the money," which I did, in an audible voice. He rebuked me severely for speaking it loud, and said it must be spoken in a whisper. This was rare sport for me. While the old man was standing off some rods, throwing himself into various shapes, I told him the rod did not work. He seemed much surprised at this, and said he thought he saw it move in my hand. It was now time for me to return to my labor. On my return, I picked up a small stone and was carelessly tossing it from one hand to the other. Said he, (looking very earnestly) what are you going to do with that stone? Throw it at the birds, I replied. No, said the old man, it is of great worth; and upon this I gave it to him. Now, says he, if you only knew the value there is back of my house (and pointing to a place near) -- there, exclaimed he, is one chest of gold and another of silver. He then put the stone which I had given him, into his hat, and stooping forward, he bowed and made sundry maneuvers, quite similar to those of a stool pigeon. At length he took down his hat, and being very much exhausted, said, in a faint voice, "if you knew what I had seen, you would believe." To see the old man thus try to impose upon me, I confess, rather had a tendency to excite contempt than pity. Yet I thought it best to conceal my feelings, preferring to appear the dupe of my credulity, than to expose myself to his resentment. His son Alvin then went through with the same performance, which was equally disgusting.

Another time, the said Joseph, Sen. told me that the best time for digging money, was, in the heat of summer, when the heat of the sun caused the chests of money to rise near the top of the ground. You notice, said he, the large stones on the top of the ground -- we call them rocks, and they truly appear so, but they are, in fact, most of them chests of money raised by the heat of the sun.

At another time, he told me that the ancient inhabitants of this country used camels instead of horses. For proof of this fact, he stated that in a certain hill on the farm of Mr. Cuyler, there was a cave containing an immense value of gold and silver, stands of arms, also, a saddle for a camel, hanging on a peg at one side of the cave. I asked him, of what kind of wood the peg was. He could not tell, but said it had become similar to stone or iron. The old man at last laid a plan which he thought would accomplish his design. His cows and mine had been gone for some time, and were not to be found, notwithstanding our diligent search for them. Day after day was spent in fruitless search, until at length he proposed to find them by his art of divination. So he took his stand near the corner of his house, with a small stick in his hand, and made several strange and peculiar motions, and then said he could go directly to the cows. So he started off, and went into the woods about one hundred rods distant and found the lost cows. But on finding out the secret of the mystery, Harrison had found the cows, and drove them to the above named place, and milked them. So that this stratagem turned out rather more to his profit that it did to my edification. -- The old man finding that all his efforts to make me a money digger, had proved abortive, at length ceased his importunities. One circumstance, however, I will mention before leaving him. Some time before young Joseph found, or pretended to find, the gold plates, the old man told me that in Canada, there had been a book found, in a hollow tree, that gave an account of the first settlement of this country before it was discovered by Columbus.

In the month of August, 1827, I was hired by Joseph Smith, Jr. to go to Pennsylvania, to move his wife's household furniture up to Manchester, where his wife then was. When we arrived at Mr. Hale's, in Harmony, Pa. from which place he had taken his wife, a scene presented itself, truly affecting. His father-in-law (Mr. Hale) addressed Joseph, in a flood of tears: "You have stolen my daughter and married her. I had much rather have followed her to her grave. You spend your time in digging for money -- pretend to see in a stone, and thus try to deceive people." Joseph wept, and acknowledged he could not see in a stone now, nor never could; and that his former pretensions in that respect, were all false. He then promised to give up his old habits of digging for money and looking into stones. Mr. Hale told Joseph, if he would move to Pennsylvania and work for a living, he would assist him in getting into business. Joseph acceded to this proposition. I then returned with Joseph and his wife to Manchester. One circumstance occurred on the road, worthy of notice, and I believe this is the only instance where Jo ever exhibited true yankee wit. On our journey to Pennsylvania, we could not make the exact change at the toll gate near Ithaca. Joseph told the gate tender, that he would "hand" him the toll on his return, as he was coming back in a few days. On our return, Joseph tendered to him 25 cents, the toll being 12 1/2. He did not recognize Smith, so he accordingly gave him back the 12 1/2 cents. After we had passed the gate, I asked him if he did not agree to pay double gatage on our return? No, said he, I agreed to "hand" it to him, and I did, but he handed it back again.

Joseph told me on his return, that he intended to keep the promise which he had made to his father-in-law; but, said he, it will be hard for me, for they will all oppose, as they want me to look in the stone for them to dig money: and in fact it was as he predicted. They urged him, day after day, to resume his old practice of looking in the stone. -- He seemed much perplexed as to the course he should pursue. In this dilemma, he made me his confident and told me what daily transpired in the family of Smiths. One day he came, and greeted me with a joyful countenance. -- Upon asking the cause of his unusual happiness, he replied in the following language: "As I was passing, yesterday, across the woods, after a heavy shower of rain, I found, in a hollow, some beautiful white sand, that had been washed up by the water. I took off my frock, and tied up several quarts of it, and then went home. On my entering the house, I found the family at the table eating dinner. They were all anxious to know the contents of my frock. At that moment, I happened to think of what I had heard about a history found in Canada, called the golden Bible; so I very gravely told them it was the golden Bible. To my surprise, they were credulous enough to believe what I said. Accordingly I told them that I had received a commandment to let no one see it, for, says I, no man can see it with the naked eye and live. However, I offered to take out the book and show it to them, but they refuse to see it, and left the room." Now, said Jo, "I have got the damned fools fixed, and will carry out the fun." Notwithstanding, he told me he had no such book, and believed there never was any such book, yet, he told me that he actually went to Willard Chase, to get him to make a chest, in which he might deposit his golden Bible. But, as Chase would not do it, he made a box himself, of clap-boards, and put it into a pillow case, and allowed people only to lift it, and feel of it through the case.

In the fall of 1827, Joseph wanted to go to Pennsylvania. His brother-in-law had come to assist him in moving, but he himself was out of money. He wished to borrow the money of me, and he presented Mr. Hale as security. I told him in case he could obtain assistance from no other source, I would let him have some money. Joseph then went to Palmyra; and, said he, I there met that dam fool, Martin Harris, and told him that I had a command to ask the first honest man I met with, for fifty dollars in money, and he would let me have it. I saw at once, said Jo, that it took his notion, for he promptly gave me the fifty.

Joseph thought this sum was sufficient to bear his expenses to Pennsylvania. So he immediately started off, and since that time I have not been much in his society. While the Smiths were living at Waterloo, William visited my neighborhood, and upon my inquiry how they came on, he replied, "we do better there than here; we were too well known here to do much.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2021 10:21AM by anybody.

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Posted by: valkyriequeen ( )
Date: August 29, 2021 10:32AM

When Joseph Smith was a child, he had to have an operation (with no anesthesia) to remove some infected bone in his leg.

After that, he walked with a limp for the rest of his life.

He wouldn't have been able to run, so therefore, an angel of the Lord must have swooped down and carried him away from the robbers; that at least would explain how he would be able to toss metal plates that weighed 100-200 lbs into the treetops.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: August 31, 2021 03:31PM


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Posted by: logged out today ( )
Date: August 29, 2021 10:57AM

FYI, that thread is eight years old. Kolobite hasn't posted at all (under that name at least) since 2017. Unless Kolobite has morphed into a long-term lurker, you've expended your effort on a post that the intended recipient will never see or read.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: August 29, 2021 12:30PM

LOL. I've been late in responding to a post at times, but 8 years is, um, exceptional? Yes, I doubt kolobite is still waiting for additional light and knowledge.

Side note: my spell checker had multiple fits with "kolobite". I had to beat it into submission to get it to not change the name to another word.

Edit to add: ah, I see that the reply to kolobite was based on a resurrected thread from 8 years ago. I rarely notice that an old thread has been resurrected unless it has something like a bunch of posts from long since gone from RFM posters, so ignore my snark about the late reply ;)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2021 08:51PM by Brother Of Jerry.

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Posted by: logged out today ( )
Date: August 29, 2021 12:34PM

I know right? That thread was so old it could be baptized.

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Posted by: Curelom Joe ( )
Date: September 02, 2021 09:11PM

Some old-timers living near my Curelom ranch, claim that he hied to Kolob in the twinkling of an eye, and then continued onward with that same speed to fly.

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: August 29, 2021 11:51AM

Oh what a tangled web we weave
when firs we practice to decieve

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: August 29, 2021 12:38PM

You must understand he lived in a much more gullible time. Evangelism was just taking hold and running unchecked. He was charismatic and DEDICATED.
He knew that if you shout loud enough and long enough there will be people who go along with you.
He was a charmer but so was Jimmy Jone in Jonesville
He believed his own bullshit

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Posted by: BoydKKK ( )
Date: August 29, 2021 02:48PM

Want to see how hard it is running with them? Get a medium sized car battery. A lot lighter but a bitch to carry if you are walking or running.

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Posted by: lurking in ( )
Date: August 29, 2021 03:39PM

Joseph Smith had a love affair with gold:

"At 19.3 g/cm^3, you are my density!"

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Posted by: nli ( )
Date: August 29, 2021 03:52PM

I've always wondered: If Smith was trying to get away from men who (he thought) were after the plates because they were gold, he didn't have to run at all. If, as he claimed, anyone who looked at the plates unauthorized would be immediately struck dead, all he had to do to protect the plates was put them on the ground, uncover them, and holler "Hey, guys, come look at them, if you dare!"

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: August 29, 2021 05:11PM

I've posted this before, but I always thought the story of JS running with the plates while getting away from 3 thugs, (who were after gold, mind you, not tumbaga) sounded like a tall tale, because if I was out with 2 of my scumbag compatriots to steal gold plates from this Smith guy, I would NOT say "Hey guys, let's all hide at different spots along the path so if Smith gets away from one of us, and then beats the second guy, the third will get him for sure!"

It's not like Smith told the story that he could take 3 different paths and the bad guys were waiting on each one to make they caught him; if I was a bad guy I'd pounce with my bad buddies and knock him down, hold him down, and grab the plates.

In other words, JS made up a dramatic tale that reminds me of movies where a dozen baddies surround the hero, and he takes them down one by one because they are too stupid to simply rush him all at once.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: August 31, 2021 03:33PM


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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: September 03, 2021 01:30AM

Maybe they were from the BYU football team.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: August 29, 2021 09:11PM

I always heard that old Joe transported the plates via Brinks armored trucks.

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Posted by: Tea Wrecks ( )
Date: August 29, 2021 09:54PM

I've always heard them called "golden plates" which could be referring to a color rather than material.

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Posted by: Anonculous ( )
Date: August 30, 2021 04:16PM

Just like the "Golden topping" movie theaters put on the popcorn.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: August 31, 2021 04:51PM

<giggle>

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: August 31, 2021 03:35PM

It doesn't matter if we've looked at this on the forum before. It's always good to have threads about REAL mormon history, even if some/most of us are aware of it among the regulars.

And it gets picked up google's little crawlers ;-)

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