I'm working on something that requires knowing about gold, which I mostly don't. Not to make too fine a point of it, but the assembly here is as fine a set of intelligent beings as I'm ever likely to come across, which is why I ask...

I've done my googling and so I know a lot of dry facts about how it's mined, and smelted and either sold for industrial or jewelry uses, or measured out in coins, ingot and bars, the latter two with 'chops'.

But then how does one buy and sell it? Do people ever pay money for certificates of ownership, but never see the gold? Could I buy a London Good Delivery bar, and if so, from whom? How would it be delivered?

Anyone have any notion what would happen if someone got a hold of a bunch of jewelry gold and melted it into a fist sized lump? How would you sell it? And is there a black market in gold?

Anything you've read or heard would be welcome...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2015 10:14PM by elderolddog.

www.apmex.com

ziller approved

I buy gold and silver coins and bars for my Solo 401K Retirement fund. I buy IRA approved coins and bars from a reputable gold and silver dealer and take personal possession if the coins. I can direct you to a wealth of information for that type of purchase, if that is what you are looking for.

I think a sprinkling of what you know will suffice.

I'm mostly curious about the black market, about what would happen if someone were to attempt find buyers for lumps of chemically pure gold that had zero paperwork to authenticate the content, and obviously, no 'chops'.

Also, does anyone know the easiest way, as in portable, to assay a specimen?

In other words, what would you do if someone knocked on your door, and offered to sell you a dove soap sized bar of gold that he said was 24 kt? Would you laugh and slam the door? Or...?

Ever heard of the acid test? Gold reacts with acid far less than most other metals.

Also, finding both the volume and the weight of an object really narrows down which metals or alloys you're dealing with. Thanks to Archimedes. If they try to weight it down with lead, they add enough volume to prove it's not real gold.

To measure volume:

(1) Immerse in water and measure the rise in water, or measure the weight of the displaced water and multiply by the specific gravity of water. This may be the only way to measure a bar or a lump.

(2) Since coins are far more symmetrical, you could use calipers to measure their thickness or diameter. Or perhaps some optical/digital equivalent. Either compare to the standard thickness and width of that coin, or directly calculate the volume.

(3) An experienced dealer can eyeball a coin and tell if it's the right size. I had a lab job where I had to deliver a certain weight, and I easily got within 2% or so just by sight alone, without using either a scale or a container.

After measuring volume, weigh and compare the weight to the measured volume times the specific gravity of gold. I may be wrong, but I think all the metals heavier than gold are also more costly than gold. So there's no incentive to substitute heavier metals for gold.

Uh oh, tungsten is heavier than gold but much, much cheaper. So there has to be a way they rule out tungsten content before buying gold.

There has been gold scams going on that is a tungstun bar wrapped in gold and marked with a reputable dealer's design. Google tungsten gold bar scams. Buyer beware!

You have to ask?

It is a scam.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2015 10:42PM by csuprovograd.

Exactly the response I was hoping for!

Most trading in commodities is done on paper, using futures contracts. People try to catch the price swings and then avoid delivery. But if you stay in your position too long, there is indeed a standard method of delivery, for which they will bill you. Think of a dump truck leaving a pile of cocoa beans on your front lawn. Or you could arrange to receive a gold bar at your home or office, just like you would receive a computer.

You can buy the commodity directly and either pay for delivery or pay for storage. Some commodities don't store very well, but gold is probably the best way in existence to store value. There are companies that do nothing but store precious metals. You pay for the privilege, and it would make a tempting scam for the wrong element. A bit like the Kirtland bank, in fact. "Sure, your gold's right here, see?' But the same gold could be promised to all the customers, so careful auditing is essential.

There's definitely a black market for gold and other valuables, diamonds for example. But from what I've read, even shady characters prefer the easy identification of government coins or standardized assay bars. The jewelry you mentioned would almost certainly bring more money as jewelry that as metallic gold. Someone might melt stolen gold objects and sell the lump at a discount, simply to avoid possessing stolen objects after the fact. But I think that gold can now be analyzed for trace elements and isotopes so thoroughly that there's very little secrecy any more. A good chemist with good equipment could probably find out where the gold came from, at least by country of origin and possibly by particular mines.

Excellent! So say someone a black market buyer has some reason to trust shows up with a dove soap sized bar of 'no chop' gold, and is well known enough not to be given the immediate heave ho that would ordinarily be the case. Does there currently exist a means to 'field test' the Au content?

I'm sure that most pawn or "We buy gold" will do a test for you at a service charge; now if they intend to sell it to them it should be a free test.

Sure, there are very good tests for chemical content, both of raw ores and of refined metals. That's what the US Government "assay offices" were for in the 19th century. And the methods are vastly better than they used to be.

Anyone who buys stolen goods for a living has to know how to examine them and authenticate them. That's why a lot of black market activity tends to be done on the side, or in a back room, by people who are also in legitimate business, buying gold from pawnshops and such. At a high enough value and a big enough discount, lots of characters are willing to enter the black market. But dealers with no obvious connection to the business, who made large transactions infrequently, would stand the least chance of detection.

And no, deals like that aren't made at the front door! Anyone who buys gold without either knowing coins and bars very well, or knowing lab procedures very well, is just begging to be relieved of their money.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Excellent! So say someone a black market buyer
> has some reason to trust shows up with a dove soap
> sized bar of 'no chop' gold, and is well known
> enough not to be given the immediate heave ho that
> would ordinarily be the case. Does there
> currently exist a means to 'field test' the Au
> content?


Yes, but you'd only be testing the surface with most of them.
the trick is figuring out if its solid gold or gold plated tungsten (which is cheaper than gold). There are a lot of variations of this scam being run today. Google tungsten and gold to get an overview.

How about putting it into a large glass bowl and taking a power drill and drilling through it? then you could test the interior flakes in one of those portable gold testing machines google showed me?

Does that make sense?

I once owned a Krugerrand. I went to a gold dealer and sold it for its current value.

They gave me cash, and I went on my merry way.

When my aunt died, my sister and I inherited dental gold from what appeared to be not only my aunt, but in addition a number of our previously-deceased relatives (plus miscellaneous chunks and pieces, some of them obviously very old but worthless as jewelry...mostly things like odd single earrings, broken jewelry chains, etc.).

I went to my dentist and asked what dentists did with the gold they had taken out of people's mouths.

He gave me a pre-addressed envelope, said to put the all the gold inside, fill out the information, and I would get a check back in the mail for the current market value. (The addressee would do all the testing etc.)...

...and I did indeed get a check back in the mail, which went into the estate bank account, and was---at the right time---divided 50%-50% with my sister.

For profit, I would definitely not PAY for gold that was not in Krugerrand form, etc., with the idea of cashing it out for real money...too many ways for a non-expert to be hornswoggled.

(And have I mentioned that I am, SERIOUSLY!!!, becoming an expert on grifters and confidence schemes which are going on RIGHT NOW??? That I am deep into the process of writing a popular audience, non-fiction book on this very subject??? It might be wise for you to be doing some research along these lines as well. ;) )

I had an HT back in the late 1970s who was a big gold bug. He expected inflation to take off and interest rates to go through the roof. Howard Ruff said so. Anyone here remember good old Mormon Howard? [He was right on the interest rates for a few years. Not so much on gold.]

unbeknownst to any of us, the Hunt brothers were simultaneously trying to corner the silver market. Gold went up above $800 an oz, silver above $40. I was living in Dallas at the time, and drove past one of the Hunt brother houses on my way to work.

I think the Hunt brothers went to jail. I know they lost a ton of money when their scheme to corner silver failed.

Not counting inflation, it took over a third of a century before gold beat the price it reached in 1977 or 78 (don't remember the peak date). Counting inflation, it is still cheaper today that it was then, plus if you bought it, you would have had to pay to store and/or transport it, and it would have paid zero dividends.

Silver, which I think peaked at around $48 the same year (1978?) is currently selling for $14.67.

Anyone who tells you real estate or precious metals are fool proof investments is either ignorant or lying. Gold is a commodity. In the short run, if a bunch of people get spooked into buying it, the price will spike and shortages will occur. Exactly the same thing will happen if you spook people into buy and extra roll of toilet paper each.

Over the long run, the price will drop to slightly above the cost of production. that is true for toilet paper, steel, wheat, and yes, gold. It's a commodity. For the right price, they will dig more out of the ground.

I had a friend in Utah who scarfed up all the gold he could after the 2008 election because you know who was the anti-Christ and a dumb bleep. Gold was between $1400 and $1600 an oz. Now it is under $1100. Oops.

And yes, my HT in 1978 told me gold was still a good buy at $800 because Howard Ruff said......

P T Barnum was closer to the mark. One is born every minute.


And finally, is "chopless gold" similar to Erica Jong's famous zipless f**k in Fear of Flying? (Yeah, I'm old)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2015 11:50PM by Brother Of Jerry.

The Hunts plan was very far reaching. Their ultimate goal was to control the silver market and then produce what would essentially be their own currency, backed by silver.

They knew that prices would rise once they started buying, but they underestimated how much silver was out there in the world. When prices reached crazy levels, people started clearing out their coin collections, closets, and jewelry boxes. Even great-grandma's sterling silverware went to the smelter. The Hunts kept buying and buying, hoping that they would break the back of the market. I don't know how close they got (the value of their own holdings in silver increased dramatically too), but they could not sustain it and the market collapsed, and they went bankrupt.

Texans!

Elderolddog, I'm afraid someone is trying to skin you!!!
:-{

I hope not to be skinless in Gaza!

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hope not to be skinless in Gaza!


:) :) :)

tevai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> elderolddog Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I hope not to be skinless in Gaza!
>
>
> :) :) :)


Look Elderolddog!!!!! doesn's she remind you of someone else who did the same thing and followed you about? Hmmmmmmmmm.

Saucie, you found me out !!! :)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2015 10:06PM by GodLedMeOut.

Of course you're anon for that.

If you are in Utah I recommend Cascade Refining as a place to sell scrap, damaged or mined gold. They do several tests including xray, acid and specific gravity. They pay a decent price as well.

They also sell a variety of gold coins. I would suggest American Eagles, Canadian Maple leaf, British Sovereigns or Swiss Francs. You can get coins as small as 1/20 of a Troy Ounce.

Swiss bars are often available as small as 1 gram.

Theme from "The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly" by Ennio Morricone


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-rHdSWZLpQ



Munich Radio Orchestra

Bavarian Radio Chorus

Susanna Rigacci, Soprano

Gilda Butta, Piano

Ennio Morricone, Conductor



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2015 07:31AM by anybody.

We've had the slowest decade for inflation since WWII. Why would anyone invest in gold right now? Gold has lost 40% of its value since 2011, when Glenn Beck was shilling for gold diggers.

As for gold certificates, they are not worth the paper they are printed on. If the world goes bust, are you going to fly to NYC to get the gold they are holding for you? You are better off putting your money in the bank that is FDIC insured than in some late night scam to separate old people from their life savings.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2015 08:49AM by axeldc.

Is there a scenario where it would make sense for someone to approach another person with an unsolicited offer to sell a hunk of gold?
Why would that person want to insert a middleman into the transaction thus diluting whatever profit is to be had by selling directly to a gold buyer/processor?
Is it stolen/contraband? Is it traceable? Is the seller 'laundering' the stuff?
I don't see any reason why this could possibly be an honest transaction without someone taking a hit.
I wouldn't be swimming with sharks, if I wasn't one myself...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2015 11:45AM by csuprovograd.

csuprovograd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is there a scenario where it would make sense for
> someone to approach another person with an
> unsolicited offer to sell a hunk of gold?

if the person in receipt of the hunk 'o gold needed to convert the hunk into cash as quickly as he could, and the person whom he approached was in the business of buying gold, sure!

> Why would that person want to insert a middleman
> into the transaction thus diluting whatever profit
> is to be had by selling to a gold buyer/processor?

out of ignorance...

>
> Is it stolen/contraband? Is it traceable? Is the
> seller 'laundering' the stuff?

everyone assumes so, but it's not!

> I don't see any reason why this could possibly be
> an honest transaction without someone taking a
> hit.

ordinarily I'd agree, because the available facts point to this.


> I wouldn't be swimming with sharks, if I wasn't
> one myself...

Yes, but yet that surfer who tangled with two sharks went right back into the water.

ProvoGrad, your first response in this thread, that as described this was obviously a scam, was the just what I was hoping for, because that's exactly what I projected the first 'gold buyer' the protagonist approaches would say, in just as succinct a manner.

So thanks, to you and the others. Again, within the walls of this wall-less community, there is probably no end to the wealth of knowledge.

BTW, I know a guy in ELA that has a winning Lotto ticket, but is afraid to cash it in. He thinks he'll be deported. He will sell it to you for half the jackpot value.

Interested?



:)

It's purdy:)

https://www.google.com/#q=Precious+metal+scam+on+eBay

A word to the wise is sufficient.

The word is...SCAM.

If you ever wanted to buy precious metals for conservative investment purposes, choose silver or platinum.