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Posted by: epiphanes ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 05:34PM

Hey Everyone,

A little over a month ago, I posted to this forum asking for advice about how to talk to Mormon missionaries. You were all very helpful, and since then I've had the missionaries over to my house twice. Both times, I cooked them dinner and we sat around my table talking for about two hours.

During the first visit, they gave me their lesson about the Restoration and the First Vision. This was followed by a general discussion about the nature of God, the means by which one is "saved," the role of the Church, and how Mormonism differs from mainstream Christianity. At the end, they gave me a Book of Mormon, which I promised I would read.

By the time they came again, I was about 3/4 of the way through the Book of Mormon. I characterized the book as "very Protestant" and "definitely geared toward an early 19th century American audience." I also said that the book was written by someone who had a passing familiarity with, but no deep understanding of, the Jewish temple system. This provoked a long discussion about the historical and theological problems with the content of the Book of Mormon. As expected, the missionaries couldn't really answer any of my questions but urged me to pray and ask God to the reveal the truth.

After the visit, they texted to invite me to a sacrament service, which I politely declined. I thought that would be the end of it - that I had scared them off. But yesterday I received another text asking if I would be available for a "short visit" one afternoon this week. When I responded in the affirmative, they missionaries texted again and asked if it would be okay to bring along "some other missionaries that work in the area." Is this some last ditch missionary tactic? I'm not threatened by the prospect of additional missionaries ... I'm just curious as to whether this is standard procedure and, if so, what it means. If anyone can provide any answers, I'd be grateful.

Lastly, I'm not even close to being out of material yet - we haven't touched the subjects of polygamy, the non-miraculous origins of the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham, the doctrinal flip-flopping, the connection between the temple rites and Freemasonry, racism, etc. Should make for an interesting conversation.

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 05:46PM

>> Is this some last ditch missionary tactic? <<

Yes, more or less. You indicated concerns, they floundered, so they ask themselves, and probably their mission president....who can we bring to answer the questions so she will join the church.

The ONLY reason they are involved with you is to baptize you as a mormon. They is no other motive.....then, you can start paying the church 10% minimum of your income and do lots of busy work for the church. And as soon as you get baptized, they're gone, and most likely you will wonder where the love is in the church once you start attending and are just a rank and file member....... and a convert no less, as opposed to "born in the Covenant" meaning born a mormon, therefore way better than someone that converts......like you!

It's probably fun to toy with them a bit, but they are in it for the money...your money. If you know you won't be joining their church, its best to let them know in uncertain terms that you are done. And even that may not work, they may still keep tabs and contact you with further messages and indoctrination.

Good luck.

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 05:47PM

"no uncertain terms"....:)

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Posted by: Mordor, not logged in ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 06:42PM

Ask them specifically who will be joining them. They could be referring to their Zone Leaders (ZLs) or Assistants to the (Mission) President (APs), 18-to-20-year-olds like them who don't know any more than they do, but who are higher up on the org chart.

Or it could be their local Ward Mission Leader (WML), a calling [assignment] made by the bishop; generally an older man, thought to be wiser and more experienced in apologetics and sophistry. The WML acts like a liaison between full-time missionaries, investigators, and the rest of the ward.

Mormons like to hold their cards close however, and it wouldn't surprise me if they were cagey with their response.

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Posted by: epiphanes ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 06:49PM

This is an excellent suggestion, thanks!

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Posted by: heartbroken ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 06:45PM

Missionaries bring reinforcements if they think they have an "investigator" with potential. There probably aren't many investigators like you who are intelligent and actually read the Book of Mormon. When I was a missionary I think only one person I taught the discussions to actually read the BoM.

If you are not interested in any more contact with the missionaries, be direct with them. If you don't tell them to stop dropping by you'll never get rid of them. They'll pass your name to the next set of missionaries.

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Posted by: epiphanes ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 06:52PM

Thanks, but I'm not quite done with them yet. Like I said in the original message, I haven't even broken out the big guns!

Whenever I feel like there's nothing more to say, I'll make a clean break.

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Posted by: heartbroken ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 08:21PM

The missionaries think they have a bigger gun that will out shoot your big guns. Their weapon is their testimony. No matter what you throw at them they will counter with "I know the Mormon church is true." They know it's true because they had a warm feeling when they prayed. That is the final word.

They will tell you to pray about the Book of Mormon. They are hoping that as you pray you will feel something good, which isn't unusual when a person thinks they are talking to "Heavenly Father." Any twinge of a good feeling will mean The Book of Mormon and the Mormon church are true.

In the Mormon church a good feeling trumps all. No evidence is necessary.

I'm just trying to prepare you. You have some good questions and arguments but none of that matters to a believing Mormon because Mormons just believe.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: January 20, 2022 08:07AM

This. Imagine you were hosting refugees from Kim Jong Un's regime. There are things they just can't process.

The missionaries live in a Mormon bubble that they can't see through. Treat them as a psychological study.

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Posted by: I ( )
Date: January 20, 2022 12:33AM

epiphanes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
THE MORMONS aren't quite done with you... yet. And it sounds like (neither of you will leave each other alone... Maybe you don't want to be alone... That's their business, and your pleasure, and BOTH YOUR PROBLEMS) they'll never be done being or playing deaf and dumb with you as long as YOU like, and they confirm, and "con-form" (or form a con), says a former convert at a convention I overheard in a conversation about faster motivation by current cubists and convicts sent to Cuba with a tuba from Yuba to play at a contradance, without contraband, contrary to conniving - and competing - economies trying to convince a cooperative to controll it's connections, in relation to it's contract... even though it sounds like a contradiction.

> Whenever I feel like there's nothing more to say, I'll make a clean break. >

There is ALWAYS more to say
Sometimes people say too much
Or don't know what to say/ask
Most people don't listen though
Take yourself for example-
They are playing the same game

"Clean break"s can't happen when one side plays dirty but it sounds like you want to turn the tables (and dance)! You've already shared your plan. It's dirty, it's late, and it sounds like a broken record... Who or what are you trying to fix? Are you looking for a token?

Mormonism will clean your clock and take you for a walk. Hope this ain't your tick talk!

Most haven't seen the wild side, yet.
But they dream and scheme and me'em.

Hope that's not you
And you get your due

And all mormons too

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Posted by: I ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 06:46PM

Pray you're not prey

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 06:48PM

In Covid times, there is no way that I would invite strangers to my home, much less let those strangers invite even more people. I would turn them down.

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Posted by: I ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 06:52PM

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In Covid times, there is no way that I would
> invite strangers to my home, much less let those
> strangers invite even more people. I would turn
> them down.

BINGO

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Posted by: Kathleen ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 06:54PM

Just tell them you don’t like child rapers —you don’t give ‘em money, and you don’t read their books. And . . . you don’t clean their toilets.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 07:22PM

Ask them if they still sing the praises of Joseph Smith, who sent his followers off on overseas missions so he could make babies with their wives?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zina_D._H._Young

Young recorded in her autobiography that she was courted by Henry Bailey Jacobs when she was eighteen years old. During this time, Joseph Smith also taught her about plural marriage in private conversations; he proposed that she become his spiritual wife on at least three different occasions.[10]: 90 [15]: 77–79  Young declined the proposals out of her respect for Emma Smith and for traditional Christian monogamy, and because such a union would require secrecy.[10]: 90  On March 7, 1841, she married Jacobs, believing she had thus avoided future proposals from Smith.[10]: 93  Nauvoo mayor John C. Bennett conducted the ceremony. Her journal from the day of the wedding reads:

I was Married to Mr. Henry Bailey Jacobs. He had been a missionary preaching the Gospel for some time. His Father Henry Jacobs was one of the first elders in the Church, faithful and true until the last.[10]: 94 
Young became pregnant shortly after her marriage. However, she continued to feel concern that she had rejected God by rejecting Joseph, whom she considered a prophet and God's spokesperson. She later recorded, "I received a testimony for myself from the Lord of this work, and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God before I ever saw him, while I resided in the state of New York, given in answer to prayer. I knew him in his lifetime, and know him to have been a great true man and a servant of God."[10]: 94  Smith wrote to her in October 1841 that he had "put it off till an angel with a drawn sword stood by me and told me if I did not establish that principle [plurality of wives] upon the earth I would lose my position and my life."[10]: 95 [15]: 80–81 [16] She and Smith were married on October 27, 1841.[15]: 81–82 [17] Her brother Dimick performed the ceremony. By that time, Joseph was married to six other women: Emma Smith, Fanny Alger, Louisa Beaman, Lucinda Pendleton Morgan, Nancy Marinda Johnson Hyde, and Clarissa Reed Hancock.[10]: 96 

Young was about seven months pregnant with Jacobs' child (Zebulon William Jacobs), as confirmed by DNA evidence,[18] when she married Smith.[19] It is not clear when Jacobs was made aware of the wedding to Smith; he did, however, believe in Smith's prophetic counsel.[10] Zina and Henry Jacobs continued to live together as man and wife,[15]: 81–82  and her "connubial relations with Joseph Smith, if any occurred at all, [were] certainly infrequent and irregular."[10]: 104  She never had any children with Smith, but she and Jacobs had another son, Henry Chariton Jacobs, on March 22, 1846. Her husband Henry was constantly called on missions (he served at least eight between 1839 and 1845)[12]: 177  and was thus often absent from the house. In the face of such absences, Zina did not turn to Smith but rather sought relief from female kin. Her marriage to Henry, riddled with absences as it was, was the only time in her life that she would have a full-time husband.[12] Though many 19th- and early 20th-century Mormon biographers painted her marriage to Henry as "not proving a happy union"[11]: 33  to justify her subsequent marriages to Smith and later to Brigham Young, evidence from her diaries suggests this assertion is unfounded.[15]: 81 

After Smith's death in 1844, Jacobs stood by while Young was sealed to Smith in the Nauvoo Temple.[19] Later in life, she called herself Joseph's "widow."[7]: 698  She was present at the meeting in which Brigham Young was chosen to lead the church; later, she and others recounted that Young spoke with the voice and appearance of Smith on that occasion.[20] Because she believed him to be God's chosen leader, she consented when Young, 20 years her senior, claimed he acted as Smith's proxy and proposed they be married for time (as many other members of the Quorum of the Twelve did with Smith's other plural wives). They were married on February 2, 1846, and, at the same time, she was re-sealed to Smith for eternity.[10]: 103  At this point, Brigham Young and other church leaders considered her civil marriage to Jacobs canceled, superseded by the spiritual marriages, though no formal divorce was ever documented.[10] In October 1861, Brigham would go on to assert, "There was another way—in which a woman could leave a man—if the woman preferred—another man higher in authority and he is willing to take her. And her husband gives her up—there is no Bill of divorce required in the case it is right in the sight of God."[10] In May 1846, Young called Henry Jacobs to serve a mission to England. During Jacobs's absence, Zina began living openly in a marital relationship with Brigham and continued to do so for the rest of her life.[15] : 84, 88, 90–91 [21] She had one child with Young, a daughter named Zina Presendia Young, in 1850.[2]

Jacobs struggled with the arrangement, still very much feeling that Young was his wife, and, in later years wrote to her: "the same affection is there .... But I feel alone .... I do not Blame Eny person .... [M]ay the Lord our Father bless Brother Brigham .... [A]ll is right according to the Law of the Celestial Kingdom of our God Joseph".

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 07:26PM

You could mention that you checked online and you came across some stories told by RMs who could be their grandfathers, in which it was mentioned that ghawd had prepared this new era:

“For behold, the field is white already to harvest; and lo, he that thrusteth in his sickle with his might, the same layeth up in store that he perisheth not but bringeth salvation to his soul.”  D&C 4:4

At that point in time, the 60s & mid-70s, many Elders, in probably most missions, were told to capitalize the 'w' in white, and to take that literally.  Many of us were taught to avoid teaching Black people.  Obviously, this was before 1978, when ghawd just suddenly, for no reason that anyone can determine, changed his mind and allowed the Black folk to have the priesthood and enter the temple.  Totally out of the blue!!

This raises questions about flip-flopping and inconsistencies, like with the name of the church...  the kids of gay parents...  Oral sex mandates...  bishop roulette...

Anyway, back in the day, it was pretty much a given that anyone who could perplex us, the missionaries, was not a likely candidate for baptism.

Words:     bad
Feeling:   good!

Back in the 1960s, the field was so ripe that the notion of 'doing service' would have been dismissed out of hand. Even in the small towns of my mission, where we could tract out the entire city in a couple of months, the idea of 'doing service' would have been rejected; we were there to convert, and doing service meant that there were doors that weren't be knocked on.

(wow, an old memory surface! Amongst the missionaries in my mission, we referred to tracting as 'toking doors', or just 'toking'.)

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Posted by: Greyfort ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 08:14PM

They probably figure that if more of them work on your emotions, the more powerful their testimonies will be.

They will gradually try to get you to ditch the knowledge you have about the Church and concentrate on your feelings. How do you feel when you pray? Have you felt a power testimony of the truthfulness of what they're teaching you, etc.

It's all about the good feels. They are not as interested in truth as they are about how good it feels to believe.

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Posted by: wondering ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 08:22PM

You should have them pray to get the answers to your questions. Turn the tables and mimic back to them instead of them telling you what to do.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 08:50PM

My guess is they now have a feel for what kinds of questions you ask and your level of study. They will bring someone who they think is "smart" enough to address your concerns (someone older probably).

If you think you scared them off, you are mistaken!

They are going to challenge you to finish the BoM and start praying for the warm fuzzy confirmation. I can't figure out why you find them entertaining but that's your gig. Meanwhile you are confirming to them that they are able to reach out and teach people, no matter if you join or not.

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Posted by: hollensnopper ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 09:13PM

I can only add that you should debunk their use of the word
"testimony".

The usual "I KNOW" blah, blah, blah is NOT a testimony. It is a statement.

According to the dictionary, a testimony is where you explain HOW you know that what you stated is actually true.

One of the biggest lies the Mormon church teaches is that feelings trump facts.

You might ask a question such as: "So if I pray and have a strong feeling that I should take my savings account and purchase lottery tickets, I will win the huge prize, that I should do that?

What if my feeling is overwhelming? I bet you could make up a better example so go for it.

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Posted by: hollensnopper ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 09:17PM

The name of the Church: according to the following Mormon Scriptures, the name of the church is "Church of God

Alma 1:7 Alma 1:19 Alma 2:4 Alma 4:4 Alma 4:9 Alma 5:3 Alma 5:5 Alma 8:23
Alma 27:27 Alma 36:6 Alma 36:9 Alma 46:10 Alma 46:14 Alma 62:46M Mosiah 18:17
Mosiah 25:22, 23, 24 Mosiah 27:9, 10, 13 Helaman 3:26, 33 Helaman 5:35
Helaman 6:3 D&C 70:5, 10 D&C 82:18 D&C 84:17 D&C 107:80
Ask how come their teachings don't agree with their scriptures

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: January 19, 2022 10:11PM

Here is a fun fact for you. He did not seal his legal wife to himself until May 28 1843. He found time to slip her in between teenagers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith%27s_wives

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: January 20, 2022 01:19AM

No competent business person would allow him or herself to be high-pressured into a sale (purchase) by being outnumbered.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: January 20, 2022 02:25PM

That's an important point, GNPE.

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Posted by: I ( )
Date: January 20, 2022 04:39PM

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No competent business person would allow him or
> herself to be high-pressured into a sale
> (purchase) by being outnumbered.

How many "investigators" (or alligators) are aware of LDS missingary - and Mormon - tactics, and, the problem is, most people don't consider Mormonism a BUSINESS (but that's their business, and for some, their downfall). There certainly is NO PLEASURE in mormonizm.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: January 20, 2022 10:27AM

Last ditch efforts usually include strength in numbers.

15 million (supposed) members can't be wrong! Don't you want to be part of the "IN" crowd? One who knows the secret?

We're ALL jumping off the bridge. Aren't you coming?

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Posted by: Kathleen ( )
Date: January 20, 2022 10:42AM

Ask them about the 2nd Anointing. Most missionaries I’ve seen know nothing about that one.

Can you drink coffee after the Big 2-A ? Allegedly you can be forgiven for anything. But . . . Coffee ?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: January 20, 2022 04:02PM

>
> Ask them about the 2nd Anointing.
>


HA!

Yes, do it and then ask them for the hand-out, or the url, where it explains how and when you can get the Second Annoying.  And just for me, call it the Second Annoying at least once...

Bonus points if you ask them why anyone would call it the Second Annoying.

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Posted by: Kathleen ( )
Date: January 20, 2022 11:20PM

Then when they look bewildered, rephrase it--"You know, Your-Calling-And-Election-Made-Sure." Then say, "I hear it's a little spendy."

"I know a guy who had the Big 2-A, now he can rape blind orphans, and it's perfectly OK."

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Posted by: lapsed2 ( )
Date: January 20, 2022 01:27PM

Go through the church essays with them.

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: January 20, 2022 01:51PM

My first thought was: if you're well-educated in the crapfest that is Mo' history and doctrine, have as many mishies over as they will bring, then treat it like a classroom--and you are the smartest person in the room.

Anyone saying they prayed about TSCC, and the "truth of it was revealed" to them, has some 'splainin' to do.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: January 20, 2022 02:05PM

30 years ago it was NOT common to bring reinforcements (extra elder or sister missionaries.

Why?

Because we were so busy as worker bees finding/teaching people. You didn't have time to go into another set of missionaries' area to see who they were teaching.

We had a busting mission where teaching 25-30 discussions per week was considered the gold standard and anything less would put you on the slacker-shit list where you would get a monthly 30 min berating interview from the mission president.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: January 20, 2022 03:12PM

If you want to talk to them again, fine. If you want to attend meetings, do it.

Whenever you get tired of having them hound you, you'll need to put your foot down, more than once. At that point, don't let them in again, even for a minute. They still see you as baptism bait at this time.

They are not easily discouraged. They're likely to keep calling for a long time and will likely give your name to the missionaries who take their place after they are reassigned.

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: January 20, 2022 06:22PM

From my own experience being a mission, a companion pair do not give up when you decline an invitation. They have so precious little to do, they are starving for attention by an investigator, no matter how long he puts them off.

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