https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/10/joseph-the-seer?lang=eng

Please take 5 minutes and read this article. I have never...in 4 years of seminary, Institute, mission with JF McConkie bloviating the high glories of JS...have I ever heard these things. To realize that JS and family were wretchedly poor and looking for any way to make a buck...and JS made up the whole damn Book of Mormon with the help of the Bible, Late War etc...just to try to sell it and make a buck...and it's all here in Aug 2015...being admitted by the church.

After reading the article, I actually feel nauseous. Clearly...the author is well aware of the fraud of JS. To read that JS didn't even use the stone to translate the "New testament" and was just speaking off the cuff...and said he was just so good at divining now and that he didn't even need those silly interpreters that were supposedly carried thousands of miles by "Moroni". To see them write about this like there is some value in folk magic really make me want to cry. Who are these people? What kind of church is this? I didn't know any of this before my mission. I feel so overwhelmed at the level of pain and exhaustion I was in in Scotland. ..all for a phony magician/liar. I need to cry.

This stood out to me....as an admission of JS's guilt. Remember that earlier in the article he talks about the poverty his and his family were living in...and now..

."On October 25, 1831, Joseph Smith attended a conference in Orange, Ohio. During the conference, his brother Hyrum said he “thought best that the information of the coming forth of the book of Mormon be related by Joseph himself to the Elders present that all might know for themselves.” According to the minutes of the meeting, Joseph “said that it was not intended to tell the world all the particulars of the coming forth of the book of Mormon” and “that it was not expedient for him to relate these things.”23 Having matured in his role as seer and coming to believe that seer stones were not essential to revelation, perhaps he worried that people might focus too much on how the book came forth and too little on the book itself."

This is a "wink-wink...these are not the droids you are looking for...and pay no attention to that man behind the curtain...I am the GREAT and POWERFUL OZ!! Now buy my damn book! And while you are at it...go tell the whole damn world to buy my damn book or else I'm go sell the whole scheme to Canada who appreciate such works of art!"

And...in the "what happened to the stone" segment...

"David Whitmer wrote that “after the translation of the Book of Mormon was finished, early in the spring of 1830, before April 6th, Joseph gave the stone to Oliver Cowdery and told me as well as the rest that he was through with it, and he did not use the stone any more.”26"

Ok, this stone supposedly was absolutely magical. Could give words directly from god to him. That would be pretty darn neat. And.....no he is through with it? "Sorry god....sort of done talking to you. Cheers". This is to me a huge admission of guilt.

Seriously...if you handed this article to every missionary in the MTC and they knew they could go home without massive social punishment...I bet you they would all leave. Folk magic? Diving rods, diving rocks?

NO way.

If I would have known this before I went in my mission, I never would have gone and I would have confronted my parents and said..."wtf cult have you gotten me into? And WTF did I just go through in that temple and how dare you expect me to give all I have to the church when I have yet to even begin my adult life!"

I see they still use the angle that magic is used in the Bible as well, and that makes it all OK. They seem to have no clue that (a) these magical elements are rejected by most Christians, and therefore (b) this makes them even look more occult.

It's like raping a girl to death and claiming you're a Christian because girls get raped to death in the Bible too.

Dumb, dumb, dumb,...

Thing that baffles me...in the story Laban dies so the record can be "preserved". That record isn't even used in the "translation". It's all so comical now...in a very real, scary way. I never thought I'd live long enough to see the church admit the entire fraud.

I just glanced though it. It could also help empty morg chapels as well even before it's published and printed in October's Ensign!!! And the morg thinks articles like this help them!??? More likely showing more people out of the morg...

People will still buy into it and I doubt many will read it. When I was TBM I read a great deal from the Ensign but not many of my peers did, in fact, not many read the VT message before I visited them. The thing I noticed was there were still no depictions of JS with his head in his hat.

Joseph Smith role in inventing the Book of Mormon is highly exaggerated.

To Lori C and others who are just now recovering after reading the rock story:

If you go back to August 4th on RfM, you'll start to see posts about the magical rock. There are numerous comments and links to off-site web pages. People have offered great insight and perspective. I've learned a lot from these people. But I'm already out.

I wish you happy hunting through these pages (if you are interested) but most of all, I wish you greater peace of minds in the days and years to come. There is a good life in store after reading news like this. It does get better.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2015 05:26PM by wondercat.

Typical Mormon-written explanation, using too many factoids, going off on tangents, using JS's own fake BOM as their main corroborative reference, etc. Now, they say Joseph became so brilliant that he no longer needed the stones.

And what about the various visual descriptions? TSCC blames the artists! Give me a break!

"Over the years, artists have sought to portray the Book of Mormon translation, showing the participants in many settings and poses with different material objects. Each artistic interpretation is based upon its artist’s own views, research, and imagination, sometimes aided by input and direction from others. Here are a few scenes produced throughout the years."

The "artists own views, research, and imagination? They were following instructions from TSCC, painting from JS's own descriptions. The Mormons will blame anyone who's standing in front of them.

"...sometimes aided by input and direction from others..."

How about, *always* aided by input and direction from others, meaning church authorities.

The lying, misdirection, and obfuscation are all beyond belief.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2015 10:56AM by summer.

I agree the church is now blaming part of the "misunderstanding" on the artists. Where was the "profit" who guides us in these latter days. Not one word through the years correcting the misunderstanding!!!

This article was alternately hilarious and deadly boring--like Mormonism itself. It read like a scholarly treatise explaining how Santa's elves make all those toys up there in the North Pole.

This article won't faze TBMs (and most won't even bother to read it). It's more inoculation, so any TBMs who happen to encounter info about the folk magic, stones, and rock-in-the-hat "translation" method can confidently point to the essay and say, "Look! They're being honest and transparent!"

What the article does is tacitly admit that JS used physical objects to "focus his attention" -- while displaying four images that reinforce the traditional ideas about his translation methods. The images depict him thoughtfully gazing at the plates, dictating to a scribe from the plates both in plain sight and behind a blanket, and wearing a breastplate with a pair of modern-looking spectacles attached. Even though the article notes that these images are "artistic interpretations," none of them illustrate the contemporary accounts of eyewitnesses who said JS stuck his face in a hat to view his seer stones.

Readers are likely going to skim the article for key words and phrases and remember little except the images.

What they'll think: God told JS to use certain physical aids to help him translate and "focus his attention." So what?

What I wish they would think: WTF?

icedtea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What I wish they would think: WTF?

^^^ Me too!

It's interesting that every one of those artists whom they are now throwing under the bus (saying, essentially, "We can't control how they depicted the translation process") depicted the scene pretty much the same: Smith staring at the Golden Plates and deriving their meaning from visual inspection.

I wonder how they all got that exact same wrong view of things.

A couple observations:

1) The article doesn't adequately explain why JS would use the chocolate covered stone for translation when the U&T was preserved for that purpose.

2) The article tries to justify the use of objects, including divining rods for spiritual guidance. As a TBM, I always thought those types of tools were of the devil. What about crystal balls? Are those for revelation, too? Is the seer stone any different than a crystal ball?

3) They threw the artists under the bus.

They keep referring to 'artist's renditions' of the translation, as if the church just took whatever the artist handed them, and the church really wasn't responsible.

"Over the years, artists have sought to portray the Book of Mormon translation, showing the participants in many settings and poses with different material objects. Each artistic interpretation is based upon its artist’s own views, research, and imagination, sometimes aided by input and direction from others."

Sometimes aided by unnamed 'others'? Are you kidding me? As if the church didn't them exactly what to depict, and then approve it before publication?

imaworkinonit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The article tries to justify the use of
> objects, including divining rods for spiritual
> guidance. As a TBM, I always thought those types
> of tools were of the devil. What about crystal
> balls? Are those for revelation, too? Is the seer
> stone any different than a crystal ball?

Note that essentially all of the cited bible references are from the Old Testament which is much more mythical:

Exodus 4:1‒5, 17, 20‒21; 7:8‒21; 8:16‒19; 9:22‒26; 10:12‒15; 14:15‒18; 17:1‒13; Numbers 17:1‒10; 20:7‒11; Hebrews 9:4.
Numbers 21:7‒9; John 3:14‒15.
Exodus 28:12; 35:9, 27; 1 Samuel 23:9‒12; 30:7‒8.
Exodus 28:30; Leviticus 8:8; Numbers 27:21; Deuteronomy 33:8; 1 Samuel 28:6; Ezra 2:63; Nehemiah 7:65.

The 2 New Testament citations (Hebrews and John) merely paraphrase Old Testament verses.

imaworkinonit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A couple observations:
>
> 1) The article doesn't adequately explain why JS
> would use the chocolate covered stone for
> translation when the U&T was preserved for that
> purpose.
>
> 2) The article tries to justify the use of
> objects, including divining rods for spiritual
> guidance. As a TBM, I always thought those types
> of tools were of the devil. What about crystal
> balls? Are those for revelation, too? Is the seer
> stone any different than a crystal ball?
>
> 3) They through the artists under the bus.
>
> They keep referring to 'artist's renditions' of
> the translation, as if the church just took
> whatever the artist handed them, and the church
> really wasn't responsible.
>
> "Over the years, artists have sought to portray
> the Book of Mormon translation, showing the
> participants in many settings and poses with
> different material objects. Each artistic
> interpretation is based upon its artist’s own
> views, research, and imagination, sometimes aided
> by input and direction from others."
>
> Sometimes aided by unnamed 'others'? Are you
> kidding me? As if the church didn't them exactly
> what to depict, and then approve it before
> publication?

do you mean like a ouija board or something similar!??? With the peep stone mess that the morg's gotten itself into of course!!

"David Whitmer wrote that 'after the translation of the Book of Mormon was finished, early in the spring of 1830, before April 6th, Joseph gave the stone to Oliver Cowdery and told me as well as the rest that he was through with it, and he did not use the stone any more.' ”

I've kept stones for decades merely because I think they are attractive and unusual. In fact I have my own smooth, egg-shaped stone that I found on a beach more than 25 years ago. I would definitely keep JS's seer stone. Why wouldn't he, especially if he truly believed that it had magical properties?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2015 10:45AM by summer.

If any of those same artists are alive, they should share their new work online with current "input" from the church. They should also add women, teens, and other men's wives to the JS and Emma statue.

Oh how about the little tidbit about the "great and powerful" Brigham who must have been so far advanced than JS because he didn't need a stone to begin with he was already a seer. Ya and I love how they are constantly throwing people under the bus. Beware Tommy once you are dead and gone your words will be meaningless oh wait they already are.

Just wait for next month when the morg unveils BY's personal ouija board. Then all the TBM will talk about how it was common knowledge and no big deal.

Here's a question.....the article quotes Mosiah about the "interpreters": "...were handed down from generation to generation, for the purpose of interpreting languages..."

So, uhhhh....exactly what languages needed interpreting in the days before JS?

And to add to the comments about the "artwork"--all of these pic's are from official LDS publications! WTF! It's not like the author used the 'South Park' pic' of JS and the hat (oh, wait, that's more correct).

Just when you think the cult is about as twisted and convoluted as it can get.....it throws something else out there.

Joseph The Seer?....or Joseph The Cunning Conman Who Thought He Was More Amazing than Jesus?

Take your pick.

JS: "I'm going to write a book, start a religion, have dozens of wives and girlfriends, become rich and and have a cult following of millions even after I'm dead!"
Hyrum: "You don't have the stones to do that."
JS: "Yes I do."

I like, 'Joseph, the man who fell to earth.'

So are missionaries at MTC being presented with the latest more accurate version of translation events to share with investigators?

Are all the church illustrations being updated to show this chocolate coloured pebble?

We should see Smith with this stone and his face in a hat from this day forward in all church illustrations.

TSCC can now justifiably show the South Park episode to all the Primary kids.

Am I the only one a little creeped out by that picture of Smith at the beginning of the article?

Misterzelph said, "TSCC can not justifiably show the South Park episode to all the Primary kids."

Now that would be the FIRST time the content got the Primary kids attention! Discipline would be taken care of.

I shall suggest this to my daughter who now holds the position of attempting to get those little munchkins' attention. She already does not know what to do with a mum who dared to go against the mormon norm and turned into an evil apostate.....she might disown me entirely with this.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2015 03:55PM by presleynfactsrock.

TSCC admits officially and publicly that the rock is a fact. No penalty for you, your daughter or the Primary President for showing the kids the South Park episode.

Thank you, South Park

TSCC has had the wings of angels omitted from a great painting and altered it so cover of the shoulder because, heaven forbid, it should not be shown to members. Using such absurd reasons to "correct" a famous artist, TSCC failed to notice "errors" in artists' renderings of the translation process? No, TSCC intentionally and knowingly promoted a false image.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2015 04:55PM by rhgc.