I was interested in the post yesterday about a rude Mormon five year old who criticized his cousins and their parents for saying "oh my god," and drinking coffee.

I've taught a few Mormon kids and conferenced with their parents. Most of them were enjoyable.

But there are Mormon parents who expect everyone to bow down to their kids and are insulted when it doesn't happen. Mormons more than most parents tend to take full credit for their kiddies' positive behaviors and want no blame if their kids are sneaky or mean.

These parents often preach at their kids constantly about the word of wisdom, using "appropriate" language, prayer, tithing, church attendance, scripture and modesty until the kids follow this high and mighty example for their own interactions. I've seen five and six year olds who preach this junk to anyone they meet. Their minds can't seem to go beyond the idea that there's one true way to be and everything else must be loudly criticized.

I think anyone these kids meet has a right to demand civility. No one does these brats a favor by accepting or cooperating with their bad behavior.

I've read dozens of posts about kiddies in super markets making rude remarks to strangers about what they put in their shopping carts or what they're wearing or saying.

I've read still more posts about nieces and nephews who tell their aunts and uncles to go to church or to give up tea or not shop on Sunday.

As a teacher my students used to say these things to me and to their classmates.

In the other thread many posters were outraged over the bratty boy being rude in someone's else's home. We do have a right to be respected in our homes. But we also have that right when we're buying wine at the grocery store or wearing a tank top at the park.

Wherever kids are when they're rude or mean they need to be corrected. They benefit from hearing that they're not anyone's boss. Their biggest job is to learn to control themselves and they don't have a right to expect to control other kids and never should they try to boss around and correct adults.

To a rude kid: "I make my own grown up decisions. You are not my boss."

Or: "You're not allowed to tell other kids what to do."

Or: "Use better manners or you will get no ice cream." Whatever they want shouldn't happen if they're rude.

To the parents: "I know you don't want your child to keep bad habits. I've had to tell him/her not to boss me around. Hopefully, it will work and I won't have to take stronger steps next time."

I wouldn't hesitate to do this wherever it's needed, in my home or elsewhere.

It's the old Mormon Superiority Complex. Mormon parents secretly love it when their kids criticize others. It proves they're going to grow up to have just the right Mormon-think.

There are literally hundreds of superior and wonderful children's books out there that truly help children navigate through the experience that we call "life".

They deal with the snags that children face on a daily basis but they also deal with raising children's awareness of their own behavior and how it affects other people, both positively and negatively. They are, however, non-blaming but teach with examples that children understand.

My daughter is not involved with the church at all and in her profession sees her share of children like you have described.

Children who have real definable problems as well as children who have been indoctrinated rather than taught.

The greatest problem with a young child who is "indoctrinated" is
that they are taught adult principles but without the logic or
understanding that go with "thou shalt nots"
all they do is regurgitate the words they hear without ever
processing the concept.

They are taught at an early age to conform out of fear of never
seeing their families again or reprisal from an unseen God that
resides somewhere up in the air. That he might strike them dead
or that they will be cast down into some fiery pit and burn.

I remember hearing one mother actually yelling at her children as she left, to mind the babysitter or they wouldn't go to the
Celestial Kingdom.

Many children who say these things have not been taught a thing about their own behavior and their motivation is often simply
out of fear for bad things happening to that person. Then all
of a sudden they get a smack and sit there wondering what that was for.

Growing up Mormon is a confusing world for a child and certainly does very little for mental health. The parents who perpetuate
this nonsense on small impressionable children are responsible
whether they like it or not. I remember feeling powerless as
a parent because whatever I taught was looked at suspiciously
by other church members because I was more inclined to teach
about the world around my children rather than "Book of Mormon
Stories.

I guess that's why I'm out and they are still there. LOL>

I've been around when children make these kinds of comments.
I give the kids leeway, they don't really understand complex social behavior yet.
What gets me, though, is when the kids say something like that ("You shouldn't be drinking coffee"), the parents praise them and reward them and say publicly how wonderful and special they are. When they should be saying, "Sweetie, we don't tell other people what to do like that."

Once I was driving with a friend, and he happened to be great with kids. As the car passed two boys, the kids threw rocks at the car, with no bad intent, just for fun. My friend immediately pulled the car over and gave those kids a very strick talking to about rock-throwing. Suddenly I grasped that those kids may have very few opportunities to be parented by a man--getting direction from a man who is paying attention to what their doing and commenting on it.

Looking around, I can't believe how many children are being raised by other children, by parents who are obsessed with their cell phones and barely look up once in a half an hour, or are subjected to very unreasonable parenting. Therefore, when children are in my space, I interact with them as an adult to a child. When a child tells me I shouldn't drink coffee, I insist, "Oh, yes I should!"

I am so happy you mentioned this. There are some children who are parenting their parents who are on drugs

A very good school psychologist explained this to me.

"If that child pees on other kids on the playground, you must not take it in stride. He needs to know what society thinks of that horrendous behavior. Adults need to clearly tell kids or they have no way of marshaling their own behavior and being a reasonable member of society."

If Mormon parents won't tell their children to watch their manners, we must do it or they won't have a way of learning what society expects of them.

What I tell my students who are rude or disrespectful is, if you say that to a middle-schooler, you will be flattened. If you say that to your future boss, you will be fired. If you say that to a police officer, you will be arrested.

That's very similar to how I taught my kids.

At our house, we use The Big Three (shit, hell and damn).

I told the kids they can say these if they want at home, but if they get caught using them with their teacher, or with Gramma, then they would suffer the consequences.

Therefore, my kids could say what they wanted around me, but in "WAY public" (which is what they always called it) they had to clean up their language.

I know some of you will dis me for this, but hey, it worked. They could get all of it out of their system at home, so it was easier to behave in public.

applesauce

I think that's very cool ... allowing your kids to cuss openly at home within limits. Cudos to you!

MCR Wrote:
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> Looking around, I can't believe how many children
> are being raised by other children

This is happening to my daughter's 14-year-old best friend. Her parents work long hours and her older sibling left for college at the beginning of summer. Responsibility for the 5-year-old little brother has fallen squarely on the shoulders of his big sister. They aren't in any financial trouble - the parents just like to work their careers. And that's fine IF they get some other adult to help raise their youngest - NOT an unpaid, immature kid. I feel so sorry for her. She really resents it and her little brother, who is a smart, energetic kid, is starting to feel more like a burden than a blessing. This particular family isn't Mormon but you do see it a lot in Mormonism - parents so busy with callings and religious nonsense that the older children raise the younger children. And no one is better off for it.

When I left the church, sometimes I would be caught off guard by some rude comment, including once by a neighbor kid about coffee in my own home. I was literally speechless.

It really helps to create your own arsenal of comebacks so you have the perfect things to say.

For rude kids "It's rude to judge or comment on what's in other people's shopping carts." In fact, it's rather weird to even watch what other people are buying.

A fairly common thing my kids would get from LDS friends were comments about "standards", as if wearing shorts or a tanktop was beneath them. I don't remember if my kids ever gave a good comeback for that one, but we talked about it at home, and I made sure they knew the distinction between "standards" and religious rules.

When you can't think of anything to say, though, a good standard comeback is a pointed "EXCUSE me?" Followed up, if necessary, by a comment about minding their own business, or maybe a bit of humor by telling the kid (or the parent) they shouldn't be talking to strangers. I do think it best not to be mean, because then the kid would end up thinking people who don't obey the word of wisdom are mean. But I'd be more direct with adults.

I rather take Cheryl's approach, education. The children surrounding us today are the adults of the future who will shape the society we and are families are going to live in. Therefore, it's not a matter of a come-back, to me, it's education. Many Mormon kids are being raised in a stifling bubble. Someone's got to open the window and let in some light and air once in awhile! If commenting rudely and loudly about my shopping cart is the catalyst for an introduction to other ways of living, perfect.

I grew up with parents who were only marginally parents. My father was either gone or a raging abusive maniac when he was home. From him I learned to keep my distance but I often got
in trouble from saying or doing things that he did.

My mother barely spoke to me. She seemed to be off on some other planet for most of my growing up years.

I'm sure I was, at times, obnoxious and I'm sure there were people who wanted to throttle me.

My parents didn't take me to church. When I was as young as 7 they dropped me off.

I basically had to learn life's rules from other people and from
watching what happened to other children who were obnoxious.

I give credit to a variety of teachers and great aunts who
pointed things out but set boundaries and let me know that I
dare not cross those boundaries.

My best teachers, however, were my own children. All of them
are so careful to be thoughtful in their comments. I learned
a great deal about the feelings other's from listening to them.

Mine was also pretty bad.

I'm proud of you and of me for rising above it and doing better for our families.

What a wonderful tribute to the teachers who helped you.

Good point about standards and rules. It's how Mormons elevate their little affectations to seem high powered and important. lol

As a full-of-himself high schooler, my son and his friends would sneer too loudly at people who appeared to be gay.

I pointed out that gay or not, eventually one of his targets was going to give him a beatdown.

Yep, it happened. And he learned. Now his kids get along with everyone.

you started a part two Cheryl! I was thinking about this last night and I bet Little Snotty's parents are going to use this in the next F&T. Sniff sniff, we are just SO proud of Little Snotty! We were visiting relatives and he told us every time The Lord's name was taken in vain. He even had the courage to stand up for the word of wisdom! Sniff sniff. We are just sure that this shining example will touch the hearts of these relatives, out of the mouth of a child ya know, sniff sniff, and that their hearts will be opened and they will be accepting of the gospel in the future.

I can see and hear those parents as clear as day! LOL

My mother made my younger brother and I go Trick-or-Treating on the Saturday before Halloween, in a non-mormon state-because Halloween was on Sunday. I'm not kidding.

People hadn't bought their candy yet, thought we were mistaken on the date... My mother didn't even hear what these people were saying to us since she was parked in the car. I think we refused after a few neighborhoods.=[

Were you instructed to say it was because you were MORMON? It was one of the most traumatic incidents in my childhood. I was teased about it for years after by classmates. I wish the adults would have waited in the car. They drug us from door to door and scolded us if we didn't use it as a missionary moment. I still think about it every Halloween.

I just never fit into that church. It didn't matter what day Halloween was. My kids went trick or treating and I gave out treats. I love Halloween and we always had fun on that day.

What a hideous, hideous experience. I truly feel really bad that your parents would do such a thing. We all seem to have these type of experiences that become indelible in our minds.

Mine was going through the temple on my wedding day.

You weren't alone! Did they really think that would impress people, instead of coming across as self-righteous freaks? Luckily none of our friends knew about it.

I'm sorry you were shamed unnecessarily. Your parents should have been teased by their peers after being forced to behave like freaks...

I was a witch and he was a skeleton. Did you have to dress like an angel without wings, Moroni... while doing missionary work Trick-or-Treating? (I hope there are a lot of Joseph Smiths with rocks in hats this year...)

That's awful you were teased like that. This is one reason why I never fit in the church because I celebrate Halloween regardless of what day of the week it falls on. From what I can tell, if Halloween falls on Sunday, Mormons do their trunk or treat at the church the day before, and they might leave all their lights off if they don't want to pass out candy to the heathens on Sunday.

How embarrassing!

My parents would not let us trick-or-treat AT ALL! It was so embarrassing at school. I remember one of the kids on the school bus said "No trick-or-treating?!?! What are you, Quakers?" And from then on, he called us The Quakers.

Growing up Mormon SUCKED!

applesauce

We just returned from a Utah trip. It was our first since we left 9 years ago, and our last until we have to go for a funeral or something.

We stayed at a hotel in Utah county. It was easy to tell the difference between the mormon and non-mormon families. The non-mormon parents (who could be easily identified by their cups of coffee, tank tops, long beards, etc) assisted their children with breakfast, chatted quietly, etc. There were a couple different mormon families (easily identified by their BYU shirts and garments) with 5 or 6 kids. They barged in each morning like they owned the place. The parents would sit down, totally checked out while the kids (as young as 5 or 6) made their own toast, waffles, etc. They cut in line, touched all the food, dropped things on the floor and left them, etc. I also heard conversations almost every morning about the people drinking coffee (which in the normal world a kid wouldn't even notice).The rest of us just shook our heads. It was crazy. There was a collective sigh of relief when they would leave.

I would have complained to the manager in the STRONGEST terms. What a horrible experience :(

If the parent didn't see it happen, it didn't happen... How dare you persecute Mormons! I've seen this so many times. The parents are on vacation, or at a restaurant, so the peons should be grateful for the "blessing" of cleaning up after their kids' mile wide swath of filth and rudeness...

When I was director of an RLDS preschool, we had lots of LDS children - even the LDS bishop's son (1 of his 13 children!) attended. The precious little boy was in the block corner and he had worked long and hard to build a tower. Well, another kid came along and accidentally knocked his rather impressive tower down.

I swear that the words out of the bishop's son's mouth were

G-- D--- It!

I never told his mother! But my assistant,a Catholic, and I sure chortled!

That will be my daughter. She has already said G-D-I a few times in my presence. She got it from me, so I'm cleaning up my language skills she doesn't say it in front of the wrong people. I have talked to her about it as well.

So what's the diff between the bratty, arrogant TBM children and ... the Generiatric Authorities?

Even before I joined up with the Mormons, I had taught my little boy that I didn't smoke because it wasn't good for you.

I worked with a young woman named Julie, whose daughter went to the same daycare center as my (then) 4 or 5 -year-old son. Son saw Julie smoking a cigarette.

He went over to her, put his hand on her arm, and said, "Miss Julie, I wish you wouldn't smoke. It's bad for you. But if you get sick, Amber can stay with us until you're better." (This was entirely his idea!)

She was so touched by his obvious concern that she actually began cutting back on her tobacco intake. Last I knew, she had quit for quite some time.

I so agree with you on this. That is how I taught my own children.

The TBM version ....

He went over to her, put his hand on her arm, and said, "Miss Julie, I wish you wouldn't smoke. If you smoke, God will not like you, and may even send you to Hell. But if God does send you to hell for smoking, Amber can stay with us and get baptized so she won't have to go to Hell with you."