There was a short bit about this on the news tonight in Utah. Although I thought it said that the LDS church was definitely pulling out of scouting. Must have heard it wrong.
As an Eagle Scout myself I say let them leave. They're so damn homophobic. And the kicker is Mormons don't worry at all about sending their little girls for 1-on-1 meetings behind closed doors with older men, discussing sins and sexuality... But a gay scout leader is unthinkable! Such a double standard.
oneinbillions Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > They're so damn homophobic. And the kicker is > Mormons don't worry at all about sending their > little girls for 1-on-1 meetings behind closed > doors with older men, discussing sins and > sexuality... But a gay scout leader is > unthinkable! Such a double standard.
brandywine Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > oneinbillions Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > They're so damn homophobic. And the kicker is > > Mormons don't worry at all about sending their > > little girls for 1-on-1 meetings behind closed > > doors with older men, discussing sins and > > sexuality... But a gay scout leader is > > unthinkable! Such a double standard. > > > ^^^Well put!
If by well put you mean you agree with his "double standard" remark equating gay men with pedophile bishops, then I can't agree with you, since this is not opposite day.
The remark does not equate gay men with pedophile bishops; it points out the ridiculousness of the Mormons' position in presuming pedophilia in gays while not doing so in other adult-child interactions within the church where it is just as likely to appear. The point is, they are holding homosexual leaders to an unfair standard for no reason, simply because of who they are--the definition of bigotry.
This is from a pro-Mormon article in the SL Tribune, where Peggy Fletcher Stack foresees a new Mormon future. This is what she foresees for Boy Scouts:
• The Boy Scouts program will split from LDS sponsorship, and be replaced by "church-sponsored activities and accompanying 'honor pins' ... rather than 'merit badges.' " Mormon leaders, "deeply troubled" by the Scouts' recent decision to allow gay adult leaders, are considering forming their own international group for boys. Savings by "no longer having to pay the [Boy Scouts of America] for church enrollment," Young writes, "may then be focused on developing a superb program which teaches eternal principles for heaven and useful skills for Earth." There will be a "complementary program for young women, who may choose from a plethora of possibilities for their 'honor pins.' "
So,... Academic question: Would the Mormons be able to pull off forming their own "international group for boys?" Being a cynic, I don't think that they can unless they make it in the form of some kind of fraud. Otherwise, it will just be one of their many other non-successes in the history of the church, right up there with Zion's Camp and the Kirtland Anti-Banking Society. (Of course, we should not forget that the Kirtland bank thing was ultimately an unsuccessful fraud.)
It's not just the chartering fees. The church spends far more on books, awards, etc...
They want out...it has nothing to do with the BSA decision, money, etc... They may save a bit, but they really just want their youth program to include more indoctrination. I wish they had dumped scouts years ago...I probably would have gotten out of the cult 20 years earlier.
our church doesn't. It's just $13 to register every adult and youth. An extra $7 if they want a Boys Life subscription.
Yep, that's it. That's all it takes to recharter. That's all we give BSA, and that's really cheap insurance for our trips.
yes, we spend oodles on uniforms and awards. But that's not exactly a donation to BSA. no doubt there's a significant markup, but still...
we received significant monies in camperships for summer camp. All our scouts are inner city well below the poverty line. If we didn't provide scouts, they wouldn't have a reason to raise money for them. So it's pretty symbiotic at this point.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2015 02:44PM by scooter.
Myron, I'm still laughing at the quote "There will be a "complementary program for young women, who may choose from a plethora of possibilities for their 'honor pins.'"
Oh, oh, oh! If ONLY they could come up with a replacement program that they could SELL outside the church. They could totally blow those evil BSA's out of the water.
If they only use the new program internally, members are going to expect to get it for free. And that would constitute a negative cash flow situation for the Lord's church.
But if they can SELL it to other homophobic churches, I mean, other churches that are interested in "eternal principles", at a reasonable price, say $49.95 per child for access to printable lesson materials, virtual hiking and camping games, and online e-badges, the Lord's church will certainly be blessed - with more revenue.
Do you think that anyone outside of the LDS sphere of influence is going to give a flying fig about how many honor pins a person got and if they got some incestual new made up award?
An Eagle Scout means something. Everyone knows what it is. If the LDS Church leaves the scouting program it will just be more proof of their unbelievably unlimited capacity of arrogance and self importance.
Does it still mean something? Certainly more than some cult award, but I don't think it means much...it might help a 16 year old get a first job, but does anybody care beyond that?
(money conversation only, no thought expressed on being involved for idealogical reasons)
I could see far greater savings than just the $13. Each year wards (in our case between utah, ca and co) are required to meet goals for friends of scouting in excess of $1500 per unit. On top of that, any scout camp ($200ish) and training is charged per boy and per adult. If you took the same amount of money that the members have to pay out of pocket or use from church budget in excess of the $13, they could form a very good program. Also, the church is already on the hook with the insurance. As a note, one of our last stakes, before leaving, was able to do it's own camp and merit badge excursion at a cost of less than $100 per boy, less than 35% of what would have been used if they utilized the BSA. I may seem bisaed towards the church on this one, but the BSA has long misused and counted on the followers in the church to pay a lot of extra money out of honor to the program they are taught they should place with BSA.
......"may then be focused on developing a superb program which teaches eternal principles for heaven and useful skills for Earth." There will be a "complementary program for young women, who may choose from a plethora of possibilities for their 'honor pins.' "
So they are replacing the BSA program with more church stuff and pitching it to the flock as being superior? Only a mormon would fall for that :)
Just another paint brush stroke deeper into the corner of mormonism.
the 12 are probably shaking in their special shorts thinking "how dare those members respond to this poll before we told them what to say...."
In reality they will be relieved that they have a good way of killing off scouts in the church with support of the members. I think its good for BSA to dump the forced participation of the church.
anontodayandtomorrow Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > the 12 are probably shaking in their special > shorts thinking "how dare those members respond > to this poll before we told them what to say...." > > > In reality they will be relieved that they have a > good way of killing off scouts in the church with > support of the members. I think its good for BSA > to dump the forced participation of the church.
I think they will decide to stay, they just want to stamp their feet and cry religious persecution for awhile.
Once the brethren announce the decision to stay, the members will fall in line and this poll will completely reverse.
Please DO separate yourselves from the Boy Scouts of America.
There are Girl Scouts also in Utah, and they are MUCH BETTER run than the lame mormon young women's brainwashing. They promote female empowerment, not a quick trip to the International House of Handshakes with some pimply "RM" as the be-all end-all of their lives.
For one I think the church is acting completely nuts and childish (I'm not getting my way so I'm going to take my ball and go home).
No one was forcing them to have leaders that are gay, only that the BSA as a whole isn't stopping it. Each troop is up to their own decision.
Then the other part of me is happy to see it happen, my spouse and I have already had discussions about this and while I haven't outed myself as a non-believer to my spouse yet, they were very much in agreement with me on moving our son to a community troop for cub scouts (Boy Scouts next year). Hoping their is some more stands of reason in my spouse.
Part of me is sad to see the church acting so childish over this and the other part is happy as it will hopefully help set the stage for us to leave the church.
They couldn't pull off doing scouting with the entire BSA organization behind them when I was a kid on the left coast and there wasn't a lot of community interaction.
I hope they drop scouts and slip further behind the social norm. They always wanted to be a peculiar people. I think they need to stop progressing with times and put a freeze frame on their beliefs like the amish. Right now I see them as wolves in sheeps' clothing. They look/act normal but they have a serious alternate agenda they trying to keep out of the spotlight. (members and SLC alike)
Let them try this homophobic move with LDS boys in the UK, and see the widespread furore that will cause. The Boy Scouts in the UK welcome gay leaders and boys equally. An independent boys movement that discriminates in any way whatsover would be strictly illegal in the UK and the rest of the European Economic Community countries. The Boy Scout and Girl Guide movements are a celebration of equality and tolerance that elevates the human mind and spirit. The LDS church is the very opposite of this. Mormon leaders are conspiring evil bigots who espouse social division, causing suspicion and hatred between diverse groups of people.
It seems unlikely that LDS, Inc. would separate themselves from the Boy Scouts as long as Thomas Monson is alive. Don't forget that Monson has received virtually every scouting honor imaginable, so he is somewhat beholden to BSA.
Thomas Monson is not mentally leading anything... He's a pawn to the 15 and if TSCC is going to break from Scouting they better do it quick.
The good news is this, and it's good for all parties:
1. BSA gets to run it's program the way they want without TSCC creating stupid programs and rules for their own needs. This also gives sponsoring entities the choice to decide who leads and sets the moral standards for their boys.
2. LDS gets to run their OWN youth program for boys and protect the standards they deem most important.
3. LDS young men who are REALLY into scouting can transfer to troops sponsored by other entities and learn from new leaders and benefit from real opportunities to lead. These non-LDS scouting units are better experiences because everyone who participates WANTS to participate and is not being FORCED to participate. This applies to scouts and leaders.
4. LDS money stays with LDS led programs.
WIN-WIN
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2015 01:39PM by Doubting Thomas.
"These non-LDS scouting units are better experiences because everyone who participates WANTS to participate and is not being FORCED to participate. This applies to scouts and leaders."
Yup. Better parental involvement through parents participating in the planning. Activities that are repeated every couple years, and keep kids excited (Old scouts help younger ones). Activities that happen over a long weekend (SUNDAYS).
Salt Lake (AP) - The harsh Mormon reaction to news of a more permissive policy on homosexual leaders by the Boy Scouts of America was encapsulated Tuesday in a comment by Willard Christensen of American Fork. Speaking to local news media, Mr. Christensen said, "Those gays are going to ruin everything!...My boys have a right to be a part of the Boy Scouts without those freaking homosexuals getting in the way. Where in the frick else are they going to learn how to deface priceless nature areas and geological formations? Huh?!"
Instead of relatively safe Boy Scout camp, the church can send all the honor pinhead faux LDS scouts to their hunting reserve to play with guns and fire. Last days paranoia prepper pins...
They expect members to suddenly give a scrap about educating girls, or providing activities beyond: guard your cupcake, get married to an RM in the temple, and produce new tithe payers ASAP?
" said Mormon leaders "definitely" or "probably" should bolt from the BSA and launch their own group for young male Latter-day Saints."
Great idea - Hitler had the same idea in the Hitler Youth. Then they can control every aspect of the program rather than have the kids actually exposed to diversity. Hitler Youth were only exposed to Nazi teenagers of the strictest stripe. If this doesn't REEK of the same thing, tell me how it doesn't... I dare you. I know someone is going to get upset with the comparison to Hitler, but if the boots fit, wear them and in this case nothing fits closer than Hitler antics.