This was said to me by a TBM brother. I would love any good ideas for a reply.

Actually, I think it is the opposite. The best thing about Mormonism is the people. The "gospel" turns them into ass hats, makes them act in ways they would not otherwise act. The "gospel" is the problem, with its sin and redemption paradigm., It sucks!

The gospel of Jesus Christ is not any church so this statement is simply stupid and only ignorant people say it.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the good news that Jesus Christ is the redeemer of mankind. If you believe this, I guess you could say it is a "perfect statement" but I would state it like this:

I believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ is true.

The "gospel" referring to the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not exclusive to Mormonism and frankly has nothing to do with the policies, procedures or programs of the church.

Now as for "The people aren't perfect..." This is a truism and is one of the basic tenants of Christianity.

The proper response to the TBM brother is simply:

Duh.

It sounds like a perfect gospel would be centered on a perfect person.

I take this as an admission that the Lord does not inspire his leaders.

The rank and file Mormons can't be held to the higher standard of having direct communication and direction from God, but the leaders can and should. There is no excuse for them to be making statements full of ignorance and bigotry if they are God's anointed.

If you claim your leaders are instruments in God's hands for all the world to follow, it is cowardly and insincere to claim that sometimes they make stupid mistakes and say untrue things because they are "men."

So polyandry is a perfect doctrine?

If by perfect you mean, changing doctrine every time a new prophet is put in. If by perfect you mean, changing the theological doctrine of the BoM. If by perfect you mean, saying the facsimile from BoA was used as inspiration to write the book and not translated as JS said.

Or, more simply you can say, "The people are true, the church is not."

A perfect gospel wouldn't exclude then include black Americans from the priesthood.

A perfect gospel wouldn't allow polygamy then disallow polygamy.

A perfect gospel wouldn't inspire its prophet to teach that it is better to be killed than raped (Kimball).

Etc.

A Perfect gospel wouldn't change. Change implies imperfection.

Finally, who said mormons are perfect? The first clause is awfully presumptuous. No one expects people, which includes mormons, to be perfect. But wouldn't we expect a perfect gospel to make better people? If not, what's the use of a perfect gospel?

Good people, bad doctrine.

This is what I told my son, who is so anti-Mormon right now that he doesn't want anything to do with a person who is Mormon. I told him to hate the Mormon Church but love the Mormons. There are many good people who happen to believe in Mormonism.

Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Steven_Weinberg

If they can say "we love the sinner but hate the sin," we can
say we love the Mormons but hate Mormonism.

And therefore we are anti-Mormonism, but not anti-Mormon.

JAR

Does the "Gospel" include the D&C and the "Standard Works™" for a TBM? Of course, absolutely, 100%.

So then it follows that D&C 132 is part of that perfect gospel, but there's no refutation of it anywhere in their Quad.

How's that work?

At last, a simple question with an easy answer!!

D&C 132, the section dealing with the new and EVERLASTING covenant of Holy Fooling Around, was put in abeyance by the official 1890 Manifesto, which was later made super official by the 1904 Manifesto, because it turned out that ghawd had his fingers crossed when he signed the 1890 Manifesto.

But rest assured, there is NO Holy Fooling Around anymore, although lots of guys have penciled in appointments for after the resurrection, when things get everlasting again.

Well, now that I know it was super official, I'm good with it.

:-)

If the gospel is perfect, why did Joseph Smith have to revise so many of his "revelations" between their first printing in 1833, and the second printing just two years later?

"Some of the revelations as they now appear in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants have been changed and added to changed and added to. Some of the changes being the greatest importance as the meaning is entirely changed on some very important matters; as if the Lord had changed his mind a few years after he gave the revelations, and after having commanded his servants (as they claim) to print them in the "Book of Commandments;"
---David Whitmer

We very often get the Gospel and the Church mixed up. They are not the same. The racist doctrine, polygamy and polyandry, pay tithing before feeding your family, etc are all the church, not the gospel. Is the gospel perfect - I really don't know but I like the gospel. Is the church perfect and/or true - No and doubtful.

My problem is that I never feel that I know what any given Mormon really means when talking about "the gospel." So, Lurker1, could you please tell me exactly what you see the gospel, *officially, in the Mormon church*, as being.

There seem to be a lot of different answers to that question, depending on who is answering. When you refer to the gospel, it would be helpful to know exactly what you mean. Is the Mormon gospel different from what a Catholic would call the gospel? Or a Baptist?

Thanks.

Ask him to define what the gospel is.

Prophets and leaders have been wrong many times, and the excuse is that they are speaking as men.

So what is the gospel? How do we know what teachings in the manuals and at conference are the gospel and what is opinion or policy.


The kicker is this kinda stuff - There’s a somewhat famous quote from Joseph Smith:
“That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. God said, 'Thou shalt not kill'; at another time He said, 'Thou shalt utterly destroy.' This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.”


Under that belief system, there is absolutely nothing off-limits, no accountability, no right and wrong, every man is free to walk after the image of his own God.

Mormonism is a sick joke.

if the Gospel cannot inspire people toward perfection, then what's the point of having it?

How about "Bullshit"

What is the "gospel"?

According to the bible, the gospel is faith, repentance, and baptism for the remission of sins. (Faith in Jesus as God the Father's only begotten--in the flesh--son.)

Nothing whatever is said about the need for genealogy, temple "endowments", being obedient to men and their doctrines, or being baptized by proxy for the dead.

Even water-baptism for remission of sins apparently can be "done without": Remember the two thief's on a cross on either side of Jesus, where the one said his end was just, and the other was repentant, and accepted--by faith--that Jesus was his Savior.

In exchange, Jesus replied, "Today thou wilt be with me in paradise".

Eventually (to paraphrase), if one wants to get into Heaven, "Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ".

Reply: I agree, the gospel is perfect.....and when mormons start living it, maybe their people will improve too.

My reply:

Which gospel is perfect?

The one that originally taught god was a spirit, then later he had a body?

The one that taught polygamy is required for the CK?

The one that taught man can become a god, then said it is just a couplet, we don't know much about that.

The one that claims the earth is only 6000 years old (D&C)?

The so called perfect gospel has changed over and over and over, usually to align with current social norms (25 years late to every party) or avoid IRS sanctions.

Soylent Green is people, know what I'm sayin'? Let he with ears, hear.

I think people are perfect just the way they are.

The Church is far from perfect, it's flawed, second rate, inaccurate, wrong, misleading, and inferior.

When people realize how important they are without the
need for any religion, they will understand their own
magnificence.

My thinking: None of it is perfect and a lot of it isn't even good. That said, of "the church," "the gospel," and "the people," the best one, to me, is the people.

And then absolutely not all of them. There are some really bad, awful people in the church. There are some really bad, awful people anywhere you look. But there are some really really incredible people (overlooking their delusions) in the church. I was reminded of that on a recent trip to Utah. Some take the bad parts of mormonism and mold their lives around it. It makes them self-righteous, judgmental, conceited, bigoted, narcissistic and arrogant. But many others do the same with the good parts.

That leads me to the thing that I know I won't get a lot of agreement on, but there ARE some good things about "the gospel," although I struggle to think of anything good about "the church." Living in the Bible Belt, I think I'd take mormon teachings about Christ over most Christian theology any day. At least they see God's love as more than just the fact that He'll pluck you from Hell if you officially claimed to be saved. You know, saved from the sinful world He cast you into in the first place. And they believe in some kind of eternal reward for all good people (well, if you're not an evil apostate), even if you weren't saved.

"The church," i.e., the Corporation is only concerned about money and power. They use their temples as their fundraising tools and exploit young adults (missionaries) for their own gain. They do what they call good works or humanitarian service for the sole purpose of calling attention to themselves.

If you put the good people together with the good parts of the gospel, you could have a pretty good organization--focused on humanitarianism. You'd have the people who perform acts of service because they have a good heart and not to impress others. And you'd have a good social organization and place to raise families. But since it doesn't work that way, most of us have no use for it since it isn't true, let alone perfect.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2015 05:55PM by NormaRae.

Just say, "Nazi's weren't perfect people, but the Nazi party was."

"The 'church'" exists to perfect the people (and in the case of Mormonism, take all they've got: their time, talent and token$), so it can't be perfect.

Magic thinking won't cut it anymore. Pass the mustard.

what "gospel" is he talking about ?

If there was one topic I absolutely hated, it was this one. The OCD with perfection. This is one reason why Mormonism breeds a culture of toxicity. It revolves around trying to be something you are not, in order to impress people who really don't care about anyone but themselves to begin with. This statement is code for co-dependency and endless excuses.

The real good news in life is about being a loving person. I have known many good people in all walks of life in all different religions as well as people with no religion who were loving.
Perfectionism, mormon style is anti-love. It's a message of you are and never will be good enough. It breeds contempt for the truth that learning is good, and good learning leads to authenticity. It is a tool to manipulate and control people into servitude and self-loathing that whatever learning happens, it is insufficient and therefore, you will never reach a goal of attaining something that cannot be achieved on your own, in this lifetime.