Just wondering if there's any chance with keeping my relationships with very TBM family?

I'm sure it depends on them more than me but I'm just looking for hope.

Does it get better with time?

Any "magical" phrases I can use that will help preserve our friendships? I haven't told them all yet.

Tell me your success stories!

I have maintained a "good" relationship with my super duper TBM family for decades now. It was rocky in the beginning. There was no shunning, but my apostasy (along with coming out as gay) changed the dynamic of the relationship. Is it an ideal relationship though? NO.

So, you can have a close relationship. It happens. But it will be different than before. And, I have to tell you that I think it does depend more on you than them.

First you will notice that your opinion doesn't count for much. That was one of the worst negatives. You will be treated differently--not necessarily openly, but underneath there is new current running that could make you feel like you are in the Terrestrial tier of the family already.

So why it depends on you, not them, is that you have to be able to adapt to that without becoming someone who jumps through their hoops and tolerates that.

In other words, you have to know who you are and have the guts to completely be yourself around them. It's okay to edit yourself a little, but they have to see you for yourself, not just someone who lost their way, or they will never respect you. That takes time. They need to see your strengths and talents and kindnesses that have nothing to do with Mormonism.

What I did was to just make my own big life and I invited them into it. That worked. Some came, some didn't. That is fine. I don't ever want friends or family who associate with me out of duty.

It took about twenty years for it to start to get good for me. I hope it is faster and smoother for others. Sometimes I don't know why I even tried, but I guess I'm glad I did.

Some families are worth the trouble and other's are not. Just never let them see you with your nose pressed up against the window. Don't try to please.

I hope there is something in this ramble that may help you.

blueorchid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I have to tell you that I think it does
> depend more on you than them.
>
> First you will notice that your opinion doesn't
> count for much. That was one of the worst
> negatives. You will be treated differently--not
> necessarily openly, but underneath there is new
> current running that could make you feel like you
> are in the Terrestrial tier of the family
> already.
>
> So why it depends on you, not them, is that you
> have to be able to adapt to that without becoming
> someone who jumps through their hoops and
> tolerates that.
>
> In other words, you have to know who you are and
> have the guts to completely be yourself around
> them. It's okay to edit yourself a little, but
> they have to see you for yourself, not just
> someone who lost their way, or they will never
> respect you. That takes time. They need to see
> your strengths and talents and kindnesses that
> have nothing to do with Mormonism.

> What I did was to just make my own big life and I invited them into it.


This is excellent advice!

-Even the nicest, politest TBM families will exhibit underneath that "new current running..."

-They will remain themselves, it is up to us to remain ourselves around them

-We have the new life, not them; so it is up to us to invite them into our new life

Great stuff.

Human

Thank you human. You have distilled what I was getting at perfectly when you said this:

"-They will remain themselves, it is up to us to remain ourselves around them"

It is very hard to do, at least it was for me. I had a natural tendency to hide the new me, to protect myself. But little by little I was able to be my self and that was key.

This part of what you said was key for me:

"It's okay to edit yourself a little, but they have to see you for yourself, not just someone who lost their way, or they will never respect you."


At first it seemed best to be "inoffensive" around TBMs, meaning look and act roughly how they do and how I once did. It seemed counter-intuitive that they would perhaps accept me more easily, or at least look down upon me less, if I behaved more truly to how I am. But it turned out to be true.

When I read that part of what you wrote, I recalled that it was the "jacks" that were condescended to, looked down upon, the ones that garnered the patronizing, head-shaking pity. The ones that left town and went on to live their lives in however fashion they found fit were almost exempt, and often given a kind of grudging respect.


RfM, for obvious and understandable reasons, usually focuses on what is wrong with mormons, --if only mormons would do this or that, think that or this, etc. Your post put more of the onus on us who leave to maintain relationships. That is refreshing. And if they do end up rejecting us on that score, it's at least up front. That undercurrent you referred to is very devastating upon first leaving. Best get it to the surface.

Finally, though, we sometimes reach a place where they aren't thinking about what is wrong with us and we in return aren't thinking about what is wrong with them. We accept each other as we are, and what is right or wrong about each other no longer matters. That's the ideal, anyway.

Honestly, I'm glad to hear that I hold more responsibility than I thought. I don't feel as helpless.

Thank you for your great advice. I'm excited to start living my own way. I will try to do it confidently. :)

I have.
I left 34 years ago.
In my immediate family, I'm still close with my very TBM mother (she just came down and stayed a week for my son's high school graduation, and wants to skype every day to see our new baby).
I'm reasonably close with my very TBM brother, although that one's been a bit more strained (probably because when his oldest son declared he didn't want to go on a mission, and dad essentially kicked him out, I had him come stay with me, got him a job, and supported him).

I basically only did one thing. It may or may not work for you, every family is different. What I did:

I simply told them both that I loved them, that they were family, and that as far as I was concerned nothing could or would change that. Even so, I am not a mormon, and never will be again -- if they accept that, and can have normal family interactions without bringing up the church, then we'll be fine. If they try to re-activate me, or constantly bring up church topics when we're together, we won't be fine. Then I told them it's up to them. I'll love and support them no matter what, but I won't spend time being bombarded by stuff I don't believe. There are an infinite number of other topics we can talk about and share.

It mostly worked. Aside from the occasional snide comment at family gatherings about me not making the CK, which I ignore, it hasn't been an issue. I don't hide my coffee when they come visit. I am myself around them. They're themselves around me.

My brother tried once (about 4 years ago) to break the "truce" and reconvert me. He's been writing for the Maxwell Institute, and teaching at Education Week -- kind of a big deal for a mormon, he's got "status." He wrote an article about "NHM" for the Maxwell Institute, and though it was *such* great evidence for the "truth" of the BoM, he forwarded it to me and said now I should reconsider, with this new evidence.
I sent him a reasoned, well-researched reply that essentially ripped his fallacy and faith-filled paper to shreds, and explained that this is why there's no reason to "believe."
Never heard another word about it. :)

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I simply told them both that I loved them, that
> they were family, and that as far as I was
> concerned nothing could or would change that.

Thank you! That's exactly how I feel and what I will say. I hope it will work as well as it did for you.

I do too. Best!

Me too! Great relationship with my sibs. Our parents are deceased now. They respect my wish not to debate religion or politics. It comes up naturally when I ask what their kids are doing, for example. They tell me about C activities but don't rub it in.

A big reason we can do this is that my dad never joined the C. He was great to allow Mom to take us to C. The flip side of the coin was that she taught us to respect his wish to worship how he wanted (or didn't want) to. 11th Article of Faith in action!

I'd much rather be able to love my sibs and nieces and nephews openly than choose to make TSCC the thing that divides our family. And happily, so would they!

They're a great family. I'm very lucky too.

It's been several years since my wife and kids left but we maintain a close relationship with nearly all TBM family members. It's wasn't easy at first, but they came around and finally accepted us. We do try to stay away from church related activities and they understand that. We respect their freedom to believe what they want and they do the same for us.

I should say that it's a very, very large family and only a couple of others have left besides us. So this includes parents, siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, etc.

If you value the relationships, you and they will find a way to get past this.

Good luck.

My relationship with my parents is strained but that was my fault. I went to them for marriage advice and made them mad at DH, it was stupid and my doing. My mom has let me know that her love for me is unconditional. My relationship with my dad isn't good but I don't care. My relationship with my two active brothers is the same, they don't call me and I don't call them but they are always nice. My ExMo brother is good to me and my TBM younger sister knows everything and supports and loves me anyway. So, thing haven't changed very much. In all things are pretty good.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2015 11:46AM by brandywine.

I've been out over five years but only disclosed my disbelief to my older sisters and younger brother two years ago (parents have died), so it may be too early to determine if our relationships will bounce back -- but if the last two years are any indication, the relationships with my sisters are damaged. My thoughts and opinions are suspect. They no longer ask what I've been reading (Civil War history is my hobby). We used to talk frequently, now not so much. I get texts every month or so, "Hope you have a good week. I love you." But most of my unanswered calls are not returned, consequently, I don't call very often. I've been to visit both of them (we all live in different states) but they haven't visited me. One of them will be visiting a son next month for her granddaughter's baptism--her son lives 45 minutes away from my home. I invited her over during her visit but she declined. No invitation was offered to me to stop by her son's home and visit.

Then on the bright side, my younger brother and his wife just stayed at my home for a weekend. It was a lovely visit but the church was not discussed. Prior to their visit, I agonized over having morning coffee but decided, what the hell, I'll try living authentically. They just finished their third couples mission and have always been TBM.

I guess I'm very lucky to have the TBM family that I have

because I have always maintained that they were more

important to me than the religion they believed in. Both

my parents have died but I know that they would feel the

same way. I'm sure my sisters wish I was still a mormon

instead of an Atheist but our relationship has not been

damaged because of our differences and I believe it's

because in our extended family it was always taught that

family came first before everything. Like I said, I'm

very very lucky.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2015 12:02PM by saucie.

Yes.

Whether or not that can work depends on the people involved, and the family dynamics. First of all, I have a 6 siblings, but we are spread out over a few states, and even before leaving the church our relationships have mostly been superficial. I felt close to just two siblings before I left the church.

Now I'm only close to only one of them, and it's because the other one started treating me differently and trying to impose her religious ideas on me, via email. So that blew up, and we eventually settled into a superficial relationship.

The other one is one of my best friends and we talk almost every day. It works because neither one tries to impose our beliefs on the other. There is mutual respect, although I assume we both think the other one is wrong about the Mormon church ;-). From my side, I can see that she is sincere in her beliefs and that she needs the church. If I had to guess, I would say that she knows that I'm a good person and that I'm sincere in my UNbelief and that I came to that point honestly. We have a lot of common interests and a similar outlook on life and relationships.

How it works: We mostly avoid the topic of religion. And when religious beliefs do come up because they are relevant to the conversation, we sometimes preface a conversation with an acknowledgement that we know the other person has a different point of view. In other words, in spite of the differences, we can still share feelings and try to see things from the other perspective.

It only works because, as far as I know, neither of us is actively trying to change the other. I NEVER feel like I'm being preached to. Sometimes I wonder if I make her feel uncomfortable when I'm sort of blunt about some things, even I don't share ALL of my thoughts or opinions about things I know she won't relate to. Just like any friendship, you can't talk about everything with every friend. You have to know who you are talking to.

I would never actively try to destroy her beliefs because I think it would be detrimental to our relationship, and I think it would be a difficult transition for her. If the church is working for her, fine. Since I don't believe in religions at all, I don't feel any need to "save" her from believing in the wrong church.

I think it tends to work for some but not for others. My TBM family dislike us intensely because we came right out and honestly indicated we don't believe in it. Even though we did not provide details as to why not, they consider us the spawn of Satan, or at least we have had to deduce that from their refusal to allow us to associate with them, their children, including adult kids - unless they, the Mormon adult parents are present.

In cases where the relationships stay intact, I would think those relationships would have first of all had to have been pretty good before exiting the cult.

But even if they weren't, it's hard to continue relationships with folks who aren't even just a little bit open minded, who are determined to keep their minds entirely shut.

I find it's pretty tough to break through if they tend to be TBMs who follow Mormon rules to excess (such as no going to the store or for a bicycle ride on a Sunday). Or at least it's been that way with me and my TBM relatives. I'm afraid they will never accept a person who has a cup of tea or coffee, but guess it's not great to generalize in that there are always exceptions to every rule.

I did. My parents always supported me and we were always close. I miss them every day. I was a lucky man,,

BUT! I come from an extremely dysfunctional family with a history of abuse, so we're all still working shit out.

I've gone through periods of no contact with family members, including my mom and my sisters, the people I'm closest to in the family, but we've had some awful, knock-down, drag-out disagreements.

Keep in mind, there's always hope. My uber TBM, conservative mother is finally coming 'round to the idea she can't control me or that one of my sisters "went lesbian" and is living an alternative lifestyle, lol.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2015 09:38PM by Itzpapalotl.

I've never had a close relationship with any of my TBM Burr family cousins and that suits me just fine. They don't bother me and I don't bother them.

RB