A serious question for those who have left the TSCC but are still married to TBM spouses:

"If you were to discover that your spouse was having an affair, would you leave them?"

If your answer is "yes", then that seems very hypocritical to me.

With 'apostasy', at least in the mind of the TBM spouse, you abandoned the oaths, covenants, vows and the mortal and immortal path that you promised to walk with your spouse... you have shattered the illusion, the dream on which your marriage was based on... And in your quest to be true to yourself, ironically, your actions/choices might represent the ultimate betrayal of trust.

Adultery, of course, is also an enormous betrayal and a shattering of trust... but is it any worse in the mind of the TBM?


I don't bring this up to shame anyone for leaving the TSCC (not in the slightest)... I guess my message is more along the lines of "who are we to judge?"...

Far too many "TBMs" put obedience to a church -- where the "oaths, covenants, vows," etc. are made-up bullshit, over relationship with a spouse, where the oaths, covenants, and vows are real and meaningful.

I don't agree that considering one valid and important and the other ridiculous and stupid is "hypocrisy." It is, in fact, completely reasonable.

"Far too many "TBMs" put obedience to a church -- where the "oaths, covenants, vows," etc. are made-up bullshit, over relationship with a spouse, where the oaths, covenants, and vows are real and meaningful."

I agree, but who are you to determine for someone else which vows are BS and which vows are meaningful?

upThink Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree, but who are you to determine for someone
> else which vows are BS and which vows are
> meaningful?

I'm me, that's who. Someone who went through them. Someone who evaluated the evidence for the claims associated with them, and found they're factually BS.

I find that promises made to a living human being (who, incidentally, one loves, and considers to be a best friend) to be a bit more compelling than the promises made to a pink sparkly unicorn in the sky.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2015 04:54PM by schlock.

I've always thought similarly. The promises made in the temple are made to a video/audio recording...rather than a real person you care about.

I suppose this sheds light on the TBM's shock and pain when their spouse apostasises - to them, the commitment to follow that path was as much part of the marriage vows as sexual faithfulness. Logically, even more so, as polygamy in the afterlife is all part of the deal.

It's an insight certainly! What actually are the vows taken in a temple marriage? Is it all based around the celestial kingdom?

1. In my case I would not abandon my spouse even in the case of adultery.
2. We were married to each other long before joining TSCC and being "sealed".
3. I do not consider the oaths and promises made in the LDS temple to be binding where one is effectively coerced in frontof many people to take oaths you knew nothing about. Especially those in the pre-1990 ceremony.

I just thought of something to ponder: If you ONLY had a temple ceremony - immediately after your "endowments" could the marriage be challenged as invalid and could be annulled in a court rather than require a divorce? Certainly, the "promises" made to TSCC are not valid and could not be upheld in a court of law.

This might be a useful exercise to help people understand why a believing spouse might choose to divorce over apostasy.

Other than that, marriage is between two people. Only they can decide what they are willing to live with. Whatever the disappointment or betrayal, real or perceived, no one but the individual gets to decide what he or she is willing to forgive or what constitutes a "deal breaker."

It depends. If it was an ongoing secret over many years involving multiple partners and exposing me to STD's, I'd probably leave her. If it was a one-time thing that she regretted and confessed to me, I probably wouldn't leave.

Consider also that many "apostates" feel betrayed by TBM spouses that plug their ears and look away when they try to share what they've learned. Many TBM's show more loyalty to the church than to their spouses. The "apostate" may be the one that abandoned their covenants, but it's usually the TBM that abandons reason, respect, decency, etc...

What covenants are you referring to? The ones I made when I was 8 years old and couldn't even care for myself (yet somehow was prepared to commit to a church for life) or the ones I made in the temple where I had to pay money for the privilege of going into the building surrounded by friends and family to make commitments no one would tell me about before hand?

Maybe we can just say making commitments to keep covenants with a being who no one can even prove exists isn't realistic. Say like if I asked my wife to covenant to care for the invisible unicorn in my backyard, then 5 months later I come into the house screaming at her for letting it die. Is that good grounds for divorce?

Yes, it's worse.

Much.

I've done them both. And I can assure you, adultery is worse.

Most TBM Mormon women I know might forgive adultery, and yet would not tolerate apostacy.

If you make promises under duress to be loyal to a church (temple marriage) how is that a valid/fair "covenant"? (You won't be getting married if you don't marry the church in the same ceremony.)

When you find out seedy facts regarding the church you belong to, how is that betraying your marriage, if you still intend to remain married? It would demonstrate a lack of character to continue worshipping Joseph Smith, and not attempting to extricate your family from a cult...

I appreciate the responses.

Allow me to clarify. When I suggest that apostasy may be a betrayal (at least from the perspective of the TBM) I'm not referring to the breaking of temple/baptismal covenants or the breaking of any vows or allegiance to the TSCC.

I'm referring more to the shattering (in the TBM spouse's mind) of an entire life mapped out together.

Two TBMs marrying in the temple for 'time and all eternity' generally have a pretty good idea of what their future will be like... Loyal church attendance, magnifying callings, family home evenings, raising children in the gospel, serving missions as a couple, working in the temple, doing genealogy... etc, etc... making their own parents proud with all their 'good works' and righteous seed... (I want to vomit.)...

When the 'apostate' spouse leaves the church, that vision comes crashing down... But I think it's much more than that... I think it affects the TBM's very identity... as much of their self worth is tied up in their quest to have a successful Mormon life and family. That is what the 'apostate' rips away from them.

Of course the church is false, of course the temple covenants are ridiculous to all of us... but that's not how the TBM sees it.

They often see it as the ultimate--and most intimate--betrayal... perhaps far more deeply than even an affair.... Of course an adulterous affair is earth-shattering, but with an affair you're still Mormon... you can still repent... maybe with some marriage counseling and priesthood blessings you can still get back on the 'right path'...

..But leaving the TSCC... You're not just a 'sinner' who had a moment of weakness... you are the apostate who has turned his/her back on your spouse and given the middle finger to the hopes, dreams and future that the temple marriage was supposed to represent...


In no way do I support the TSCC. I think those who have left have made the right decision, and hopefully they can get their families out too... but let's not be blind to the deep sense of betrayal that many TBM spouses feel...

That is why, IMHO, leaving the church (to many TBMs) is worse than an affair.

OK, interesting question. I want to put another angle on it.

Apostacy is bad because it takes at least one person and possibly more out of the supposed saving power of the MORmON church.

Adultery is bad because someone is betrayed.

So how bad is it, from a TBM point of view when a person is on a mission for ulterior reasons/ motives, they do not really believe in THE ( MORmON) church, and they take to purposely turning away investigators as in purposely really pissing them off, as a form of personal amusement / wanton demonstration of their personal power for the sake of being personally gratified?

That's an example of extreme betrayal of people AND taking them out of THE ( MORmON) church in advance. so how would that factor out ?

I consider the vows I made with DW infinitely more important than the BS ones I made to the imaginary space pixie. That's why my name isn't among the Ashley Madison data dump, even though I am from Utah.

This is the real problem with Mormon marriages. Too many TBM spouses married an 'eternal companion' rather than the actual living person in front of them.

I recently had a good, usually sensible, friend tell me that if her husband told her he was leaving the church she would 'leave him right then and there. No questions asked.'

It's extremely frustrating to see this hard-headed mindset when you realize it's all made up.

Even when I was a TBM I would have viewed adultery as much worse. You are betraying your spouse when you cheat. You are 'betraying' the church when you leave.

Seriously UpThink?

If you leave the Church you'd be a hypocrite for leaving your adulterous spouse?

Ridiculous.

I don't think that was the argument upthink was making.

This isn't about one action being better or worse than another... This is all about the perception of the spouse. Yes, I think it IS hypocritical--or at least selfishly naive--to think your leaving the TSCC isn't an enormous betrayal to your TBM spouse... and it's understandable that they might feel every bit as justified in leaving you as if you had an adulterous affair... In both cases, it represents a material betrayal of the spirit and intent of the marriage.

I would have been happy if he had just stayed and helped raise the kids. It was "I" who decided we were going inactive because I wasn't going to the leaders about him being gay ever again.

If these women think they are going to find a good priesthood holder out there who is going to love their kids like their father, they have a lesson to learn. I've seen SO MANY of these women end up divorced for a second time and the whole family is traumatized because they think they can start over. You can't start over.

For every mormon woman who gives up their husband because of loss of belief, I hope her next husband cheats on her so she can see which is worse. My family meant much more to me and my gay ex meant much more to me than the church and I was as devout as they come. I gave up marriage to 3 nonmormons who I really loved FOR a temple marriage. My parents even thought I was nuts. The mormon guys I worked with thought I was nuts. All for a temple marriage.

And any woman who thinks apostasy is as bad as or worse than adultery, isn't that a double standard? If he is cheating on you, he isn't thinking eternal marriage or making it to the CK. You are really screwed up if you can rationalize yourself out of that one.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2015 04:16PM by cl2.

adultery = betrayed spouse
apostasy = betrayed spouse, friends, family, ward, etc etc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2015 04:24PM by cognitivedissonance.

I think to a TBM apostasy is worse.

With adultry you can repent and be forgiven in the eyes of a TBM.

With apostasy you will never be forgiven because apostasy is unrepentant by its nature.

Your point only works with Mormonism. In any NORMAL marriage
you vow to each other. In Mormonism you vow to the Church. In
the Mormon marriage ceremony it's not "for better or worse" . .
. or "Love, honor, and cherish" but it's " promise that you will
observe and keep all the laws, rites, and ordinances pertaining
to this Holy Order of Matrimony in the New and Everlasting
Covenant, . . ."

It's all about the Church's "laws, rites, and ordinances."

In Mormonism your spouse does not marry you, the two of you
jointly marry the Church.