I read on another forum that about 50% of missionarys go inactive or leave the church. A load of very angry TBMs came on and said it was on 5% and obviously if a RM left the church they never had a testimony any way. I read of the 1000 returned missionary from Mongolia 40 % were inctive! What do people think? How many RMS leave or go inactive?

Do you mean DURING their mission, or AFTER?

After, I have no idea -- but it's likely more than 5%.

And their "no true Scotsman fallacy" (they were never really one of us anyway) should be pointed out for what it is. This is their attempt to rationalize, not a "fact."

Is it possible for a true Scotsman to make a "no true Scotsman" fallacy?

Consider a (hypothetical) individual with these qualities:
1. Born in Scotland, still lives there
2. Rocks the tartan
3. Possesses mad bagpipe skills
4. Always refers to children as "wee bairns"
5. Makes his own artisanal haggis

Would the very act of making a NTS fallacy alone disqualify him from being a true Scotsman, despite these characteristics?

You have missed out on the defining characteristic of a True Scotsman.

If you are aware of this, you will also be aware that a True Believing Member of the LDS church cannot be a True Scotsman, whatever their nationality.

If you do not know what I mean, I dare you to walk up to anyone on the street in Scotland, preferably someone who is wearing a kilt, and ask them if they are a True Scotsman. Please video the results and post them here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2015 08:11AM by finnan haddie.

I mean after their mission!

I'm one.
It's hard to get actual numbers.

Today on RadioWest (KUER FM90, in Salt Lake), historian Greg Prince said that about 50% of return missionaries leave the church within 5 years of returning home.

My mission president told me in my exit interview that 2/3 of RM's go inactive "at some point" following their missions...it was his warning to stay diligent, blah, blah, blah... I would bet that a huge chunk of those then return to church at some point, but the 5% claim is obviously off by a HUGE margin. The 2/3 number was way before people were "leaving in droves" over church history issues too, so it could be worse now.

I could just kick myself Britboy.

While TBM I sat in on a mission conference (2010) where there were 4 GAs and 3 Quorum of Seventy members (not from the 1st or 2nd Quorums). The presiding nut job was Elder L. Whitney Clayton, of the Presidency of the Seventy. At one point Clayton spewed statistics that just rolled off his tongue effortlessly. He didn't use notes. He had the stats memorized in his head.

He said something like this:

During your mission:
1) X% of you will be sent home early.
2) X% of you will be excommunicated.
3) X% of you will receive a dishonorable release.
4) X% of you will be sent home early for emotional or mental issues.

After your missions:
5) X% of you will no longer have a temple recommend in x years.
6) x% of you will stop paying tithing after x number of years.
7) x% of you will be inactive in 5 years (I remember that number).
8) x% of you will be excommunicated (now I think he was also including 'resignations' but he didn't use that term).
9) X% of you will marry in the temple and remain active . . . "And from that group, in 20-years, you will be among the group from which the future leaders of the church are chosen like all of us on the stand." (According to my recollection he had all the GAs, the MP and his wife stand up.)

The talk was to try and use statistics to make the missionaries want to be part of the elite group: the future leaders of the church and to remain active. It was a mind game. I remember thinking, "What is each missionary thinking right now? Which category will I fall into?"

I could just kick myself for not having recorded the event, or taken really accurate notes. Those stats would be priceless now.

I remember thinking, "I can't believe that so many would be out of the church and totally inactive after their missions." It was a huge percentage, not 5%. I remember thinking, "That's half the missionaries present."

So a large percentage is probably right, if I recall correctly.

EDITED: For spelling.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/24/2015 06:28PM by jiminycricket.

It seems like a few missionaries might hear this talk and think, "What? There must be something wrong with this church! Why would half of the missionaries fall away?"

Yeah, the intent was probably to cast the others as unfaithful, as losers. But hey, boy, if you stick it out you might become one of us!

I would be thinking, "Crap, I don't want to be like them."

jiminycricket Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I could just kick myself Britboy.
>
> While TBM I sat in on a mission conference (2010)
> where there were 4 GAs and 3 Quorum of Seventy
> members (not from the 1st or 2nd Quorums). The
> presiding nut job was Elder L. Whitney Clayton, of
> the Presidency of the Seventy. At one point
> Clayton spewed statistics that just rolled off his
> tongue effortlessly. He didn't use notes. He had
> the stats memorized in his head.
>
> He said something like this:
>
> During your mission:
> 1) X% of you will be sent home early.
> 2) X% of you will be excommunicated.
> 3) X% of you will receive a dishonorable release.
> 4) X% of you will be sent home early for emotional
> or mental issues.
>
> After your missions:
> 5) X% of you will no longer have a temple
> recommend in x years.
> 6) x% of you will stop paying tithing after x
> number of years.
> 7) x% of you will be inactive in 5 years (I
> remember that number).
> 8) x% of you will be excommunicated (now I think
> he was also including 'resignations' but he didn't
> use that term).
> 9) X% of you will marry in the temple and remain
> active . . . "And from that group, in 20-years,
> you will be among the group from which the future
> leaders of the church are chosen like all of us on
> the stand." (According to my recollection he had
> all the GAs, the MP and his wife stand up.)
>
> The talk was to try and use statistics to make the
> missionaries want to be part of the elite group:
> the future leaders of the church and to remain
> active. It was a mind game. I remember thinking,
> "What is each missionary thinking right now? Which
> category will I fall into?"
>
> I could just kick myself for not having recorded
> the event, or taken really accurate notes. Those
> stats would be priceless now.
>
> I remember thinking, "I can't believe that so many
> would be out of the church and totally inactive
> after their missions." It was a huge percentage,
> not 5%. I remember thinking, "That's half the
> missionaries present."
>
> So a large percentage is probably right, if I
> recall correctly.
>
> EDITED: For spelling.

Excuss my language pleaZ ........but Elder Clayton sounds
like a real * ASSHOLE **
I think all of the missionaries at that conference should've stood up and said " Well then......let's not waste any more of YOUR time or OUR time" and walked OUT.
I went on my mission from 76 to 78. Now we live in Missouri & all the missionaries are supposed to reactivate. Since we haven't gone to church for 6 years , they used to come here ALL the time UNTIL I asked them one day if they still told people that we have a no paid clergy. They said yes. I said THAT's a lie. Told'em it was a bold faced lie. YES , local leaders aren't paid. THAT's why they pick lawyers.....or Doctors , or the size of your tractors. We haven't seen missionaries here since ! (Thank goodness )

X% of you will marry in the temple and remain active . . . "And from that group, in 20-years, you will be among the group from which the future leaders of the church are chosen like all of us on the stand.

Lies. Still waiting. (not really)

So many RM's are going inactive that that actually began a program designed to keep them active long enough to marry in the temple so they're trapped. It's called My Plan. They just started it this summer. It's pretty much trying to keep as much control over the young man after his mission as he had while on the mission. Just google LDS My Plan. They wouldn't have started this program if the number leaving wasn't huge and starting to hurt the organization.

"Just google LDS My Plan. They wouldn't have started this program if the number leaving wasn't huge and starting to hurt the organization."

The necessity of such a program hints that a lot of young Mormons serve missions to either please their family, get into BYU, be able to date Mormons, etc., rather than because they're true believers. Once they fulfill their mission obligation and get into or graduate from college, get married, etc., they're no longer under that pressure to conform, and they go inactive.

In an exit interview--decades ago--my MP told me to stay true because something like 40 to 50% of RMs go inactive at some point and that it's more like 80% of P.A.s go inactive. I couldn't imagine even one missionary going inactive so I was shocked. No one ever used the "left the church" term at that point--just "inactive." This isn't just a current problem for them apparently.

None of us knew the "anti" stuff back then. I think it was more about the church being a big bore.

To his credit the MP did say that even though the church recommended you get married within six months, he felt it was better to make sure you found the right one.

I heard this also from my MP. I was surprised, so I questioned a Church Employee (CES) about this... They agreed. They also explained that just because "I" and most I knew came from the Moridor, most missionaries were actually "Locals" so quite a few Europeans, Asians, Pacific Islanders, South Americans and Africans now are finding out the truth and they don't have that "cultural or familial" handcuff that will chain them to the LDS Corp forever.

Even most members who are learning the truth and the real history would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to leave, but they can't because of family, business/employment, etc...

Quite some time ago a poster on this board said that he had a relative who worked at the Missionary Training Center in Provo. This relative had commented to him that the staff had been told to do everything they could to strengthen the new missionaries in their testimonies, since they estimated that 40% of all Mormon missionaries eventually leave the church.

At the time I was skeptical about accepting such hearsay information as reliable, so I did not repeat it. But a few months later I was attending an exmormon conference in Salt Lake City, and I happened to meet a young man who had recently been on a mission, but had already left the church. As we chatted, I asked him about that comment. He was not at all surprised, and said that all the missionaries in his group had been told the same thing: be careful about guarding your testimonies, because otherwise 40% of you will end up leaving the church.

With that informal confirmation, the original post appeared to be accurate, and from the church itself.

Thanks for all the comments so far, really interesting stuff!

Didn't Grant Palmer say that 45% of RMs no longer hold a TR after 5 years? It was his October 2012 Exmormon Conf talk: My Aha Moments, right? And he got the info from an insider. Somebody help me here.

JAR

I believe the stats are true, but getting real data will be slim. They don't want to acknowledge that mishies are being bombarded with the truth and it's having a tremendous effect on activity.

Back in the aerly 90s, I knew two mishies that were planning to be inactive after they finished their missions. They were tired of attending church. Sundays easily became 8 hour days inside the chapel. We were expected to attend services in both English and Spanish even if we didn't investigators attending. Then there were ward mission meetings too. I clearly understood that TSCC was demanding too much.

I never would have imagined that I would go inactive within 7 years of serving a mission, but I had no idea that I would see firsthand the financial fraud that was being conspired by the leaders. I couldn't attend a church where they were stealing tithing to pay for their personal businesses.

There's really 3 numbers that the church is likely interested in:

-- Currently active (measured by attendance, temple recommend, or some other easily digestible metric)

-- Currently inactive (not resigned, perhaps has wife or children who is active, etc.)

-- Permanently inactive (resigned members that will never come back)

People can move between the first two categories readily enough, but once you're in the third category, you stay there. So the church has to sweat the composition of the 50% (or whatever the true number is) that are inactive. How many will ever come back? Does the number exceed those that move into the third category?

Anecdotally, among my high school cohort, there were 7 men (pretty sure that's what the number is, I may nto have thought of everybody) that served missions. 3 of us are all-the-way-out resigned ex-members. Of the remaining 4, 2 are active, and 2 are 'unknown.' We all got home from our missions between 10 and 11 years ago.

So, the 50% number makes a lot of sense to me. Among my generation, I'd suspect it to be as high as 60-70%.

Bigger is better.

I left the church 14 years after returning from my mission. I have since met many former RM's that have left.

My mission in Denmark was the beginning of the end for me. In Denmark I found an intellectual, happy, bunch of people that didn't need a belief in God or a church to be totally happy & satisfied with life.

It has been great to go back since & enjoy some strong coffee or beer & realize how great life is without the confines of the church.

A mission can really open your eyes to the stupidity of the church. We were just salesman.

40% of my companions went inactive or resigned after now 10 years
I guess the number of the Elders are similar. I know a lot who are inactive now, though So I guess 40-60% seems realistic to me.

Instead of "inactive", they are actually ACTIVE - in searching out their future, making sense of life (in or out of the big bad Church - BBC), and or following their truth/ heart (and mind).

OVER 200 Missionaries come home early from their missions DAILY.
And the church completely forgets about them, has no program for them, no thanks, no gratitude, nothing…

http://mormonomore.tumblr.com/image/96829158420

70% of my mission went inactive or left the cult. my mission of the begining of the end for me and many others

Um, 200 may come home per day on average, but that would mostly be from completing their missions, not early. See, 200 per day is 73,000 a year, which is roughly all of them.